40: Learning From Others – Jason Baller


Today’s guest is Jason Baller the co-host of the Sprinkled with Hope podcast. Today we discuss the things he has learned from his guests in the 100+ episodes they have recorded over the past year or so. He has noticed some recurring themes and truths that have come up across all those interviews. He has noticed that success is often tied to a person’s ability to be humble and grateful. Being humble enough to ask for help in improving and then showing gratitude for the help we receive really goes a long way. 

Jason is also now offering two separate courses on their podcast’s website. you can learn more by going to: https://sprinkledwithhope.com/training-courses

I hope you enjoy the conversation. I know I did!

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Phil Salter 0:00
Welcome to no better time. I’m Phil Salter, and today I’m so happy to be here with Jason Baller, who’s a co host of an incredible podcast called sprinkled with hope. Welcome, Jason.

Jason Baller 0:15
Yeah. Thanks for having me on, Phil. I appreciate it.

Phil Salter 0:18
Oh, of course. Yeah, I’ve been looking forward to it. We kind of been going back and forth. And I, I even gave you a shout out on a previous episode, because you reached out to me, just to give me encouragement about doing the podcast and give me some, some feedback and some recommendations for some guests. And one of the things that, uh, that really drew me to you is the fact that you also have been doing a podcast for a little while yourself. This is sprinkled with hope podcasts. And you were just telling me you’re about to almost about to hit your 100th episode, correct?

Jason Baller 0:49
Yeah, it’s, it’s pretty incredible the journey that, that I’ve been on for the last year, and we’re gonna hit the 100th episode, the day after our year anniversary, so Yeah, wow. been going strong for a while.

Phil Salter 1:04
That’s incredible. Congratulations. Thank you. It’s got to be feel really good. And that have you been able to find from doing that, like, that you’re finding a community of people that listen and that give you feedback?

Jason Baller 1:18
Yeah, that there, there is a community out there of people that that like to listen to, you know, my podcast is all around hope and finding more hope. And, you know, in this troubled world that, you know, seems to be kind of everything, ripping you down. And so, you know, my podcast is more about building you up. And, and, granted, we’ve talked to every individual you can think of, from coaches, to musicians to just interviewed my first NFL head football coach. Wow. Last week, so yeah, it was really awesome.

Phil Salter 1:56
Have you found over time, you’ll be able to get kind of those higher and higher. I don’t know if you’d say tear guests that are kind of like an NFL coach. That’s pretty awesome.

Jason Baller 2:04
Yeah. Yeah. It was Andy Reid from the from the Kansas City Chiefs. Wow, pretty great conversation, actually. But yeah, like, you know, I think that, at least, you know, what I found is hope runs through every buddy. And so that’s what I talked about. Yours is obviously a little different. But I’m happy to share the some of the things that I’ve learned from my guests about those kinds of topics as well. So definitely,

Phil Salter 2:33
because you talk to entrepreneurs, people that are successful in all kinds of ways. I even talked to someone that was still just graduating high school who had lost her, was it both legs? I think it was, yeah, just drunk driver. And, yeah, just all kinds of guests, which is really awesome. And then just that, that through line of hope and positivity, which I really appreciate, because I think you’re right, there’s not enough hope out there. I mean, it’s out there. I just don’t think it’s emphasized. It’s not, it’s not lacking, right. It’s the emphasis on it. This may be lacking. Sure. And I think that’s really cool. Because I think that there’s a lot of men, particular maybe who would feel like, they can’t be super positive and uplifting and encouraging people. You know, maybe that’s more of a thing of the past. But I just think the thing is more manly than building people up. Nothing’s more womanly, like, I mean, you know what I’m saying? Like, it’s a human, right?

Jason Baller 3:28
Yeah, it is. And that’s it. It’s a human factor. So,

Phil Salter 3:32
yeah. And I kind of mentioned you like, I have some questions I’ve been trying to ask everyone is a kind of a kicking off point, you’re still determining if it’s the thing at the end of the beginning, but we’ll start we’ll go with the beginning for now. But to me, yeah. So the thing I always I noticed that I thought of as I was thinking of as podcasts. And when I was kind of doing my initial episodes where I was talking about my experience with finances, and kind of what led me to think, hey, I want to learn more about this. I want to take it head on, I don’t want to be afraid or intimidated by the concept of building wealth and of investing in investing in myself in other ways. But for you as a child, what would you say your relationship was to money as a child? And how’s that maybe kind of evolved as you’ve as you’ve grown up?

Jason Baller 4:16
Yeah. And I think that’s a really great question to ask, you know, when, when I was thinking about that, you know, my parents are not very good with money and never really have been so, you know, when I was younger, you know, my concept of money was probably, well, it is a lot different than it is now that I’m older and having kids and I know that I’m an adult and have a job and all this other stuff, but so, you know, as I was thinking about how it’s evolved, it I have come to respect money in a different way than I did when I was a kid. I think when I was a kid, you know, you just felt like Yeah, you can just buy whatever you want, you just have to have money you can just, and so now, you know, you get a little bit more frugal you, you know, you invest in things that you would like to invest in, you know, I found myself being a little bit more maybe cautious with my money as far as you know, where I’m putting it and what I’m spending it on and what I am investing in. And there’s many different ways to invest, right? Like you could invest in a 401k. Or you could invest in a course, right, that would help you, you know, that that’s a different kind of investment, but it is an investment in yourself. Definitely. And it takes that money to do that. So that’s what I found is just, you know, not just growing my financial wealth, but also my, my intellectual wealth. My, you know, so there’s, there’s also that piece to it, as well, as I was kind of thinking about that.

Phil Salter 6:01
Oh, I totally agree, I think that’s so important is, I mean, we spend so much money on things like, you know, decent size TVs, like I like behind me, here are other things, but sometimes we hesitate to invest in ourselves and think I can’t spend, let’s say it was $500 on some course to to improve ourselves, but I’ll go spend $1,000 on TV, you know, that kind of situation, it’s investing in ourselves is an investment, for sure that is worthwhile. What’s more valuable than investing ourselves and our families, you know, things that will make those things better? For sure. That’s a great, great answer. Because, yeah, I think that my relationship to money has changed. And the ability to recognize, hey, I can, you know, earn a lot of money, if I put my mind to it, that doesn’t become the end all be all of my life, though. Right? But right, with money comes freedom, right, and the ability to make choices to help others and to do great things. So that’s kind of how I see it. And then the other thing I was gonna ask you was, what was the first way you can remember making money? And how old were you?

Jason Baller 7:08
Yeah, that’s, that was that’s also another great question. And so, you know, let’s, let’s go back to my childhood, when, when paper routes were a thing, right? When people actually bought newspapers, I know, it’s hard to imagine. But that that’s, that was the first job, I had an IT guy started that I was probably eight or 10, or something like that, right around there, when I started doing a paper out, and my mom would drive me up and down the street, and I would throw the newspapers out of the back of her station wagon to help make money and, you know, for whatever reason, right? For Penny candies at the, at the store, or whatever it be. And so that’s kind of where, you know, that entrepreneurial spirit kind of came from, was just wow, I could actually kind of do my own thing. And yeah, start to create my own income off of doing little things like this, you know, so that’s, that’s where it started all when I was a kid. Cuz as that,

Phil Salter 8:14
as you know, is gonna be other questions. What was the first entrepreneurial thing you can remember doing? And? Yeah, and I could see there could definitely they’re kind of connected potential there.

Jason Baller 8:23
I kind of connected I mean, it’s a little different. But that’s where this the spirit of it, I think came from, yeah, stun me from that the entrepreneurial side of things. So

Phil Salter 8:34
yeah. Would you say that doing this podcast, you feel it? Do you feel it’s an entrepreneurial endeavor?

Jason Baller 8:38
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it, you know, I’ll tell you that it has led to other things. So, you know, I started out this journey of mine, just simply bringing hope back to, to the world and to people. And it has completely evolved into now I’m getting ready to actually launch some courses, some online courses of mine,

Phil Salter 9:10
to help people, what are they about the topic,

Jason Baller 9:12
it’s about hope and, you know, overcoming fears and, you know, finding gratitude and, and how to build more self confidence and things like that, that are really it’s that growth mindset, you know, personal development and, and self growth. But, you know, that’s kind of the avenue that I’m working on right now is building these courses.

Phil Salter 9:37
That’s fantastic. So that those those are great things to be to learning to be learning those strategies of how to approach life in that way. And there’s great a lot of people could use that. I’m sure I know. That’s great. keep bumping my mic. Yeah, that’s really cool. And so is that going to be something that’s kind of still in the works? It sounds like right.

Jason Baller 9:58
Yeah, we’re getting pretty close. launching it. You know, we’ve got pretty much most of the content created through our website. And so we’re, you know, we’re just going to get ready to, to launch the whole thing here. Probably a soft launch here in the next week or two. Oh, wow. Well, then an actual, like full on launch, like July 1 probably is what kind of what we’re thinking. So

Phil Salter 10:22
what’s probably going to be at least a couple of weeks, I think before this episode comes out. So can we are you okay? Saying what, like, where what the website is?

Jason Baller 10:30
Oh, yeah, it’s, it’s just sprinkled with hope, calm? Oh, you know, and so on there, you can find all my stuff. But yeah, that’s kind of where we’re building the courses in the background of that website right now. And so it’s been kind of a learning curve for me, because I’m not really it kind of person. I’m computer savvy. But so this has been kind of a cool little thing to see, you know, how much work actually goes into building something like this? It’s not, yeah, throw it together. And it’s ready, you know?

Phil Salter 11:03
Yeah, for sure. That’s, that’s great. Have you. And you said, the actual official launches July 1.

Jason Baller 11:11
Yeah, that’s kind of what we’re shooting for, we’re gonna do a soft launch where we, you know, get some people that, that have shown some interest in wanting to, you know, kind of be at the forefront of it and kind of do some testing on it, make sure it’s, you know, the content is good. And that works great. And they like it and get some feedback. You know,

Phil Salter 11:30
it’s really exciting. Because, I mean, if someone’s listening to this, and they think, wow, I want to do something I’m not sure what that thing is. You started with a podcast, not originally, with the idea of, hey, I want to make a course out of this something I guess, sell. But you found you found a value and a need that you realize, hey, I’ve interviewed almost 100 people at this point, and we have something that we can share that we’ve learned from that. That’s great. That’s the whole my podcast is all about is like, there’s no better time than now just get started. And I’ve learned that same thing here. I’ve been doing this for, I mean, almost a couple months now. But it’s like, I’ve learned so much. I can start I can start entrepreneurial, I’m not making a bunch of money here. It’d be cool. If it became that, you know, that’s not, that’s not in the back of my mind, you know, but it is, but in itself, just the the ways I’ve been rethinking my side business and how I approach to life, it’s just, it’s changing my life. It’s amazing. So people need to, you know, take those leaps and do those things, you know, may not everyone’s gonna want to make a podcast, but anything that you go for concerning the things you would never imagine. Absolutely. It kind of it kind of speaking to that a little bit. I’m curious if, if there’s some things you’d learned from your various guests that you think are, are, I guess, relevant to the conversation of finance or careers, you know, taking risks? Those kind of things?

Jason Baller 12:57
Yeah, and, you know, there, I’ve talked to a lot of different people from a lot of different walks of life. I mean, some of them, you know, I talked to quite a few musicians, I’ve talked to, you know, different career and life coaches and things like that. I’ve talked to authors, and, you know, head football coaches, I’ve talked to various different people and kind of the running theme that I saw, was the best of the best always take action, and it kind of goes along with what you’re no better time, right the now. And that is to just do what it is that you want to do. Whether that’s, you know, get your 401k better, or whether that’s, you know, go to your boss and just take a stab and say, I’d like a raise, you know, it’s like, doing the thing that you’re almost kind of fearful of doing. Like, that’s the thing that drives a lot of these people to just push forward through those difficult things. And it’s, it is as simple as just taking action, doing the thing. And taking that first step. And it may be it may feel like a leap to some and others may feel like a baby step. And so, but it’s just moving in that direction, towards what it is you’re either passionate about what drives you. And like I said, I started this podcast, not even knowing that I was going to build a course. But I took the step right and so that step led to the next step, which led to the next step. And eventually this is where I’m at

Phil Salter 14:40
and these all add up to giant leaps in your life. right but it’s step by step, man, you pass the test you gave me chills. That was awesome. I I’m thinking about what you said. And just Yeah, I was thinking yeah, like, sometimes it’s the little steps that just getting you started and you because you’re saying big leaps, but sometimes little steps are like totally you know, because sometimes you feel like I don’t No like, but the thing I’ve said in previous episodes is like, do something don’t do nothing, right? Anything that puts you closer. Like, I think it’s so funny, then it kicked off this whole process for me, that led to me realizing, I need to learn more about this hobby kind of cool to do a podcast about that experience of learning. Yeah, I was like, I thought for so long, I want to put money aside for my kids every month. Sure. And I was like, I have to wait till I can do like something that is significant. Like I don’t if I can’t put more like it was 200 bucks per kid per month into some account, then what’s the point of doing it? Right? In one day, I had to start like, Wait a second. What if I just put 10 bucks a month per kid? You know, it’s not. It’s not like 100 bucks, but it’s something it’s not nothing. Right? So right. And then and then a few, about six months passed, or whatever it was, it was kind of the latter end of last year. And then this year came, I was like, What am I double that 20 bucks per kit? I have three kids, you know. And then I just thought, hey, next year 2022, I’ll double it again. And I’ll just keep doing that until well, as long as it makes sense. But just that’s what made me start thinking, Oh, what if I started putting more towards my retirement? What Why don’t I start looking more about what retirement could look like, for me, all that stuff. It’s all from little steps, you know, that may seem like, Oh, that’s not even worth doing. But it’s if it’s putting it closer and putting you in the right direction than it is most certainly was worth doing. And as soon as possible. So

Jason Baller 16:25
that’s, I was just thinking, you know, as you were kind of talking about that, you know, several years ago, I you know, I was listening to another podcast, and they were kind of talking about putting money into, you know, investments in the 401, K’s or IRAs or, you know, whatever it is that you want to do. And, you know, starting at that 3% match or whatever that your company does, but every year, or every six months, just up at a percentage, right? So you’re just doing a little bit, and by the time you’re at 10%, you won’t really have felt it because you’re just doing these incremental steps. And so that’s kind of what, when you were talking about that wouldn’t made me think, Oh, yeah, and ideally, like your own personal, you know, investment. So

Phil Salter 17:09
yeah, and as overtime they would be, and that’s also going to get you thinking differently. Sure, oh, I need more money. So I can keep doing this. I’m gonna ask for that race. I’m gonna push harder. I’m going to talk to my boss during my one on ones or my reviews and say, Where am I at? Where can I be? Let’s make some, like, legit goals right now together on paper. And I’m going to show you next time I talk to you that I, where I’m at and that I’ve made I’ve met the goals we talked about, these are all the things that you’re saying, it doesn’t have to be doing some crazy thing. You could be like, hey, what can I do now? Or I’m standing in my job I’m at now I don’t have to go start some big new software company. It’s like, what can I do where I’m at where I’m standing. That’s great. And I love what you’re saying that you kind of notice these patterns in the people, you talk to these universal truths. I have an episode coming out tomorrow, I’m talking about universal patterns and truths that are all around us. So hopefully you you check that one out, Jase, I will. But, uh, any other patterns? Or are things you kind of have noticed with your guests that stand out to you?

Jason Baller 18:10
You know, so, so I was talking to, you know, Andy Reed from the Kansas City Chiefs, the head football coach, and he said something that was kind of profound, because, you know, he’s, he’s worked with, you know, some amazing, amazing athletes, right? I mean, not just Patrick mahomes, which everybody knows of right now. But, I mean, he’s worked with the Jerry Rice’s, the, all of these, you know, super, super early athletes and, and I asked him, like, how do you? How do you motivate or get those particular players to grow? And that was the question I asked, but what he said what could be used in any aspect, and that is that they always just ask, what can I do next to become better? What can I do next become greater at my skill or my thing? What they’re always looking for? Some way to move up? They’re not looking to just stay at their plateau. Right. And I think that’s oftentimes what happens at least in career or financial path is we just say, Oh, you know what, I’m happy where I’m at and no, like, What? What is it that you can do to be the next step to get better at your craft? It whatever that craft is, right? What, what’s the thing you can do? I thought that was pretty profound. At least when I heard it, it kind of struck a chord with me was, yeah, we can do, what is that thing that we can do?

Phil Salter 19:40
And that’s hard. And that’s the thing is, depending on where you’re at, that can be incredibly scary question to ask, because that sure, requires a lot of work and introspection. And maybe you need to reach out to those around you to say, hey, or maybe someone that’s superior to help you isolate where you can improve. And that’s a scary prospect. because like you said, If You’re comfortable, you know, if you’re too comfortable, like, you got to get a little uncomfortable if you want to be if you’re to be growing, you know. And it’s funny, because today I’m a software engineer and I’m on a team. And and we had a kind of a weekly planning meeting. And there’s this guy on my team who’s way, way been doing this way less time than I have, you know, he just barely he’s very junior, and senior software engineer, but he’s just killing it. Like, he’s just working. Like, we have these tasks, and he’s just plowing through them and just like, getting way more done than me. And I was like, dang, because I kind of lead these meetings. I’m not like a team lead, was called as a scrum master. It’s like, it’s kind of about the process, like, Hey, I lead these meetings, like planning and blah, blah, it doesn’t matter. I just don’t want to make it sound like I’m sure. I’m not. So anyways, I was just like, because I have the ability to kind of direct the conversations by poker. And I just like said, dang, as I hit me, like, dang, he’s like, I had this thought, like, man, either he’s amazing, or I suck like those, like, as if those were the only two options, you know, let me he is amazing. But you know, what I just I just like said, You know what, let’s have a conversation. We just finished planning. Before we like go our separate ways. It’s all remote. You know? I said, Greg, like, you’re just doing so much work. You’re constantly getting things done, like what’s happening, like, what are you doing mentally to get to that place where you say, I don’t want to just do what I committed to I want to go beyond. And he kind of shared some things. And I was like, Alright, like, if I was too proud or scared to ask that question. Like I pointing out that I’m, like, pointing out, you’re doing more than me right now. Like, that was kind of hard to say at first. But then I realized, how can I do better? If I don’t look at myself and look differently? You know what I mean?

Jason Baller 21:50
Yeah, totally agree. Yeah, a little bit of, you know, humility, I think goes a long ways. And that’s kind of what you’re talking about. Right? And, and I think that’s the part where we can grow. And so yeah, that’s a great story,

Phil Salter 22:05
just asking questions and asking and learning. And if someone has information for you, it doesn’t matter if it seems like they don’t know what they’re like, I’ve been doing this longer. Well, it’s not there’s no, it’s no good. It’s not gonna get you anywhere. No, it’s not. And the people that are the most well, I don’t know about this, but I just know, there’s plenty of people that are really far in life. I remember like, Listen, the podcast teaches you so much. You hear like, for instance, an interview of like, a big time director, and he’s like, I don’t know what I’m doing. I’m always asking people, like, how, what’s the best way to get this shot? And it’s like, he’s so confident in his skills that he’s okay admitting when he doesn’t know something, because it’s like, I’ve already proven myself, I’m great. You know, what, so if I don’t know this, there’s got to be a good reason. And I’m gonna ask questions, you know, so, anyways, really good. I think I’m talking too much. Sorry. No, I’m loving it. Yeah, it was there anything else you wanted to share about your experience with the podcast before we wrap it up?

Jason Baller 23:05
You know, I, one of the other things that, you know, that has kind of come up. And again, I think this could be utilized all over, across the board. Right. But that is gratitude. And I think oftentimes, we, we kind of lacked the gratitude for the things that we have. And, and I really think that, you know, in talking to a lot of them, that’s where a lot of their successes come from, because they are grateful for the things they’ve learned. They’re grateful for what they have currently, they’re grateful for, you know, just the many, many things that they’ve seen in their life that have come from different, you know, they’re grateful for the people that have been in their life that have helped them get to where they are. Gratitude is definitely another one of those kind of, you know, running themes that I, that I’ve seen, and all the people that I’ve talked to, and they’re, I mean, you you wouldn’t think so. But they’re, they’re very humble people that have done a lot of things and they are grateful for the people that they were surrounded by that made them better. That, you know, took them to that level of greatness that they were seeking. So yeah,

Phil Salter 24:22
so I was kind of saying from, from my experience, like the greatest whatever, you know, the topic or thing is, seemed to have that that ability. I think the exception is that kind of we kind of see these examples, like in movies of the guy on top who’s just a jerk and steps and everybody along the way. I think that’s exception. You know, I think that the people that really do great things and have people’s respect, have have that humility, like we were saying you were saying, right, and that’s that’s a huge thing to realize. And as is really important to show gratitude, because it almost seems like a It’s, it gets you on both sides. Because if you’re grateful, you’re looking and noticing things, and you’re you’re making those connections, you’re seeing the patterns. And you’re grateful for them. And then being a positive, grateful person. People want to be around positive, grateful people. Yeah, they really don’t make them feel good. And so then they like, remember you, and then they’re going to be opportunities that come up that you wouldn’t have expected because you have that positive association. So it’s like good for everybody, for yourself, and for the everyone around you.

Jason Baller 25:35
Oh, yeah, I love gratitude, I love thinking about all the things that I’m grateful for. And I really do think that it helps. When you, you know, you, if you were talking about career, or finances, or whatever it be, when you’re when you show gratitude for the things that you currently have. I think it really just sets you up for better success. Because then you you’re not just thinking, Oh, poor me, or, man, I’m in a bad situation, or whatever it is, you’re just grateful for what you have. And then just try to be better do better. Whatever it is, take that little step right that that I was kind of talking about taking action do the thing. If it’s hard, or you’re afraid of it, then that’s probably the thing that you should do.

Phil Salter 26:20
Yes. And I don’t know why I thought of this. But have you found in your life that other times when you see something in someone that you really appreciate? And you hold back telling them?

Jason Baller 26:32
Oh, yeah, you already do. And I don’t know why. I don’t know why that is. I mean, it shouldn’t be that way. Right? Yeah. Like, you know, kind of you were telling your story about, you know, Oh, is he just awesome? And I suck. Phil, you’re amazing, right? Like, you know. But you’re right. Like, I don’t think that we tell other people how good they are and the great things that they do and that we’re grateful for them in our our lives, right. And so, I totally agree. I think we should say those things more often.

Phil Salter 27:09
And sometimes you might be embarrassed or like, it might seem silly. Sure. And I’ve tried really hard for a while now ever since I read this book, How to Win Friends and Influence People. It’s great. I love I’ve read it three times, I’ve decided I’m gonna read every year. I read it already dislike within the last 12 months. But man, it’s so good. It’s so old. But yet it’s just so universal, the concepts, but just that the thing that taught me I learned from that is that is that positivity, and to tell people that the things they’re doing right, and not pointing out what they’re doing wrong. And I try really hard. I’m not perfect at it. But when I think of something, if I’m being cognizant enough to, you know, say, hey, I need it, I should tell that person. And it’s gone a long way for me, like as the scrum master on my team leading meetings and like, have the opportunity to tell people like, Man, you’re awesome because of this. And it feels so good. And I can see that they there they light up when I tell them. And I’ve learned that all mad, I’m not going to hold back is I’ll try as hard as I can to not hold back those, those compliments when I see them. Like I said of you like you reaching out to me, like, kind of blows my mind that someone else that’s doing a podcast would take the time to just reach out to me not I didn’t solicit anything from you. And you just saw, hey, I could help him. And that’s, that’s not typical. And so that says a lot about you as a person. So I appreciate that of you. So thank you. Absolutely inspires me to want to help others, you know, so.

Jason Baller 28:41
Yeah, and I think that, you know, whether it’s a podcasting journey, or it’s life, or it’s whatever it is, I think that we, you know, if we have that skill set, and those things that we can help somebody, why wouldn’t we share that with them? To make this world a better place? I like to bring more hope into things and be more hopeful. And that’s, that’s kind of my journey. And, and that’s part of, you know, my philosophy that I’m living. Yeah, I’m doing exactly what I’m saying. I’m going to do, which is help somebody else if I can help them.

Phil Salter 29:19
Yeah, I can only think of one reason not to help someone. It’s if there’s like, an NBA game on, you know, but besides that, yeah, definitely, man. Thanks again, Jason, for your time. It’s It’s been such a pleasure to speak with you. I’ve been looking forward to it. People just check out Jason’s podcast sprinkle with hope. Who’s your co host? Again? I’m trying to I’m so it’s my brother Shane. I didn’t know it’s your brother. Awesome. Me and him started that while ago and your son did the music for it right?

Jason Baller 29:51
Yeah, he did. My son did the intro and the outro for it. So which

Phil Salter 29:55
are awesome and when he someone says in their spring who was whoa or something? Is that your son? Yeah, that’s okay. Yeah as he does music I think I’ve seen it does Yeah. posted his stuff so that’s cool. Yeah if people want to get learn more about you is the best place then sprinkled with hope calm.

Jason Baller 30:13
Yeah sprinkle hope calm is the best way to find us. There’s a you know about section you can also we have an email that you can get in touch with us right through there. has all of our podcast episodes linked right on our on our website

Phil Salter 30:30
soon to have something to

Jason Baller 30:31
have our training courses up and yeah, up and going. So

Phil Salter 30:36
yeah, great. So check that out. And if anyone has any questions for Jason, based on this conversation, you can email me at No Better Time. podcast@gmail.com and I’ll forward them to him and we’ll see what he has to say. And thanks again, Jason. You have been a pleasure. Oh, definitely. You have a good one. You too.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai


39: Taking Risks and Learning – Kaulana Shum


My guest today is Kaulana Shum, someone that I have known since the Summer of 2004. He has made quite a name for himself in software sales and sales leadership. He tells his story of taking risks and pivoting throughout his life and career. He has bought homes in various cities and states as his work has moved him to new locations. He has learned things along the way. Things have gone his way, and some mistakes were made, but the learning never stopped. Everything we experience, but particularly failure, is an opportunity for learning and growth! I know you will like this one!

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Kaulana Shum 0:02
Oh my gosh, what should I start over again? Or should we? What should we uh? Oh, man, that was it. We’re freaking out like we haven’t talked yet for like the last five minutes.

Phil Salter 0:09
Yeah, let’s just do that.

Kaulana Shum 0:10

Phil Salter 0:12
We can’t here’s the thing. We can’t try to actually recreate what we actually just did, because that’s ridiculous.

Kaulana Shum 0:16

Phil Salter 0:17
but let’s just get back into it. Because basically, you’re saying, I know you, you are telling me that you knew you wanted to live in Southern California, right?

Kaulana Shum 0:26
Yep. Yep. And, and I it was it was one of those things where this is back in 2004. When we were in the same singles Ward and Riverside over the summer. That’s where I met you. And Lawrence and member Duke Duke McCrory. And, and so when I was out here, so that was my first time doing door to door sales, and I.

And, anyway, I loved the Southern California so much. So I was like, you know, one of these days, I’m going to end up here, right? And then in Utah, so that fast forward, like, I don’t know, next, over the next like, eight years. My career took off in in Utah. And we bought our first house in 2007. And then, which, which is like the wrong time, and I’ll tell you a story about that in a sec. But we’re like, Hey, we bought our first house, my career was starting to take off. And then in 2013, we bought our second house, and I remember buying that second house, I was like, Hey, this is like, Nicole and I, this is our commitment. I guess we’re staying in Utah, because neither of us are from Utah. We don’t have any family in Utah. So, um, so I was like, I guess we’re gonna be, I guess we’re gonna be utahns. You know, I guess our kids are gonna be growing up here, you know? Yeah. And then, and then I got my first I got a job offer to move out to San Francisco. And, and they’re like, hey, we’ll pay you a ton of money. Right. And like, I remember thinking at that time, I didn’t realize that conversion was as big as it was right? Like a ton of money. In Utah, you know, versus a ton of a ton of money in California are two very different numbers. And so we moved out to California to San Francisco. And then I got an our job offer down in Southern California. And I was like, hey, maybe we should take it. And that’s when Nicole was like, Hey, remember back when we first got married? You said, You said that you wanted to end up in Southern California. And I was like, yep, here we are, like,

Phil Salter 2:16
so was missing me. Did she have to point that out to you? Or did you kind of be like, we were on the fence? We’re on the fence of moving? Oh, that’s what kind of pushed you over the edge like, no, yeah, let’s take this. Let’s take the leap.

Kaulana Shum 2:26
That’s right. So we have like the, what’s the what’s the, the the, there’s a president Abe Lincoln, close, or Thomas Jefferson close or not? No, Thomas Jefferson, like comparison, like the pros and cons of each other. Like side by side. We did like pros and cons. I even did a PowerPoint deck for my wife. I was like, here’s the pros of leaving San Francisco, you know, and here’s all that and then she’s like, here’s the biggest Trump the trump card. He’s like you said, you’re gonna move down here one day, and I was like, Ah, you’re right.

Phil Salter 2:56
You sound like you’re trying to get yourself out of moving down there in a way. Because I mean, the Bay Area,

Kaulana Shum 3:01
you know, you know, how it is with with software, like, the Bay Area, you know, there was something about there’s something about the bay area that like, I love the energy, I love that you could throw a rock and you could hit a startup, you know, like, or, or you could walk out with, with a resume and be like, Hey, I’m a software sales guy. And like, 10 people like make you offers, right, and like, I really love that energy and excitement. And like, there’s a lot of nuance that you kind of like, you laugh that as an outsider, but as an insider, you’re like, I totally get that. Right, like startups, like the funny thing to do pick two of the two most random words and stick them together. And it’s like a startup name, right? So like, you know, uh, anyway, so So the problem was with the set was San Francisco for us was that in order for us to be able to afford to live in San Francisco, we had to leave like, what a live like 45 minutes outside of 45 minutes with no traffic outside of town, right. So in the East Bay, and then the commute to work. Like this is ridiculous coming from from Utah, like where I worked at Domo when I lived in Lehi. So it’s like a it was a 12 minute commute, right? What traffic and whereas in the San Francisco Bay Area, it was like, Hey, I had to take a 12 minute drive to the BART station at like 545 in the morning, so I can get parking and then have to walk 10 minutes to the BART to Bart Barton was six an hour 45 minutes and then want to get to the city. I got to walk in there, like 20 more minutes, you know, and I was like, this is ridiculous, you know, but I was like, this is this is the cost of living there. Right? Like, this is what it was. And so I got really comfortable like, listening to books, read books, I was reading books. I got like a lot of stuff done. Sometimes it just slept and it was fine. You got to like hug your backpack, you know, like so that, you know, no one we’re doing anything. So while you’re sleeping. Yeah, we’re sleeping right like when eyes open when you’re sleeping. But then like my office moved down to San Mateo which is by the airport and the only way you could do that was the drive you couldn’t you couldn’t Bart into the city because then you’d have to take like boober on the other side to like, get to the bottom right. So like that that original hour and 15 minute commute from my house to the city now became an hour and 30 minute drive to San Mateo. And then on the way back, it was like you’re hitting traffic and it was like, two hours to get home at least every single time. Yeah, so there was just no balance, you know. So like, it was really easy for me to like, when I was laying it out, I was like, you know, I got home, I was too tired to like play with the kids, I was kind of grumpy. I’d always stopped by 711 On the way home to pick up some food or something so I could keep myself awake. You know. So I was like gaining weight, you know. And also it’s like, also the weekends like, everyone in the frickin Bay Area, like is trying to relax on the weekends. And so then you’re like fighting traffic to go relax and get where you want to go. So like it was just, it was way too much for us. So we ended up moving to Southern California.

Phil Salter 5:50
That was there a big difference. Because I mean, I grew up in Southern California, but I have been an adult outside of California. So I don’t really know that. That grind of the traffic.

Kaulana Shum 6:00
So it’s different. Southern California versus Northern California. Right Southern California. Yeah, there’s trap LA traffic is like horrendous, like Riverside, where you grew up a Riverside and you

Phil Salter 6:11

Kaulana Shum 6:12
Yeah. Riverside like that. That area is like a lot of people live in Riverside. And we got to take the 91 out. By the way, I also got used to like talking about highways. And yeah, I have a number the the 91. You got to take the 91 to the 133 and take it all the way down. That traffic in the morning coming from Inland Empire to Orange County is ridiculous, right? But very, but going opposite directions. If you live in Orange County and go to work in Inland Empire, it’s like a breeze right. But if you’re anywhere along like from Orange County up to LA, it’s also like, shoot me in the face. Like this sucks, you know, and I’ve had to make that commute. But like fortunately, every job I’ve had is not like a daily commute up there like, but like Ventura County, I haven’t had a job up in Ventura County and I went up there once every six weeks or so, to the office and coming back home. It’s like, if you leave at two o’clock, if you leave before two o’clock, it takes you only two hours to get home. But if you leave after two o’clock, it takes four hours to get home four hours to get home. It’s like driving the Boise from Salt Lake City,

Phil Salter 7:15
you know, yeah, that’s and that’s like daily if and that’s a big difference of you saying if between before and after two o’clock? Yeah, exactly. It says, something holds you up at work. You’re like, no. Like, you know, 10 minute conversation just cost me hours. Yeah,

Kaulana Shum 7:32
it’s funny, because like, if I like even in the office, I was like, Hey, guys, I gotta go. And everyone’s like, get out of here. Get out, go. Like, they’re like pushing me out.

Phil Salter 7:40
You gotta at least they understood that’s.

Kaulana Shum 7:44
So it’s been really good, though. In California, you know, like, it’s been really good for our family. What I was saying earlier was when I was when we bought the house in Utah, we did sell because that’s where, as you remember, I was I was living in raintree. Right? with you and with Plex. Yep, apartment complex. And then we move to Belmont. I moved to Belmont. And then from there, I got married, right. And so we bought a house in Lehigh. It was like the right time. And back then in 2007, it was cheaper to buy than it was to rent a place. And so we bought a house. And then we got this. Our mortgage guy was like, Hey, you should do this thing. It’s called a it’s called a five year arm. And it was like a five year arm. That sounds cool. Yeah, there’s an arm. Let’s do it. Because it makes sense, right? And he tried to explain what it was. And it’s like, three months. And for the listeners who don’t know what the five year RM is, it’s it’s a, it’s an interest only loan for the first five years, you’re only paying interest for the first five years. And then at the five year mark, they adjust to what the market is. So we don’t know if the market will drop or market will go up. Either way, you’re not paying down a single dollar towards your principal of the house, which is like, insane. And the only way it makes sense. Actually, let me ask you, Phil, what do you think? Is there a situation where a five year arm might make sense?

Phil Salter 9:04
I don’t know. This is new to me, actually. So my question for you though, first is once the five year passes, is it whatever rate it gets to is that become a fixed rate? Or is it variable for next raid? Okay, but but it’s all based on where it’s at? Yeah. So it could go up or down, but we don’t know. Right? But that’s really, to me, that seems scary. The unknowns there. But it could end up really good. Or it could be like, Oh, dang, that wasn’t worth it. And I feel like at the whole the same time, if you’re only paying interest, you’re not bringing down your principal at all during that five years as well. So that’s not really going to help you either. It makes me seem good for those five years. That’s a sweet five years, but you’re not really helping yourself isn’t in my opinion, but you’re I’m sure experience.

Kaulana Shum 9:44
That’s exactly what you’re you’re right. I mean, it was the first like, so I think our monthly payment was only like 600 bucks. Like it was Yeah. But there’s 100% interest, right and so like, the only way it made sense is if we knew we’re gonna flip flip the house and turn it and sell it within the five years, right like even a mortgage guy. Like, dude, you don’t want to take the gamble of seeing what the rate is going to be in five years. Right? So he’s like, if you plan on selling within two to four years, like, do this, but this

Phil Salter 10:07
is 1007, though, right? Yeah,

Kaulana Shum 10:09
exactly. Like, exactly. So it’s like, so so it was like call it 600 bucks. Let’s say we did say the market didn’t take a crap on us, right? It was like 600 bucks a month, times. Two years, right? I can’t do the math on that. 600 equals 66,000 12,000. We’re paying about 12 13,000 something dollars over the course of two years.

Phil Salter 10:32
Right? Yeah. 72. So $600 for a year, 70 $200 a year? So times 14 1414. Right. So $14,400 for two years. Yeah.

Kaulana Shum 10:42
And then but if the house if the house value went up? By 30 grand, right, then it’s like you quickly made $15,000. While you know paying a very low monthly, yes,

Phil Salter 10:55
it’s a great thing, if you’re going to sell like you said two years, and it goes up in value.

Kaulana Shum 10:59
Yep. Yeah, control. Exactly. And so like it made sense for a minute. And then like, and then one morning, it was one of those things where you’re like taking a shower in the morning, you know, you know, you’re doing this and you’re like, that didn’t make any sense at all, you know. So I called up another mortgage guy. And I was like, Hey, this is what I did. He’s like, You’re an idiot, like you should, should just get a 30 year traditional. And so and so I got a so I got refinance, but the stupid part was because it was 2007 or 2008. He’s like, the money that you put down, you put down $40,000 on a $200,000 house, he’s like, you paid 20%. So you don’t you’re not paying mortgage interest. But now the value of the house is only worth 160 grand because the market took a dump. So now you got to pay, you know, mortgage interest. And I was like, crap, you

Phil Salter 11:48
know, me that you had to get the private mortgage insurance right at that point? Yep. When you’re driving, and I see. Ah, what a bummer. Yeah, it was a bummer. It was

Kaulana Shum 11:55
a total bummer. And so that was in 2008. And finally, like in 2000, like, Oh, no. 16 we finally like made our money. We started like, it started worth being worth the same amount as we did before. And you know, it’s just idiotic, but yeah, no one’s No. Like, I don’t know how to. I didn’t know how to buy a house. Oh, yeah. I didn’t even ask my parents about it. I was just like, I’m just I got a five year arm. I made seven five year arm, you know? So?

Phil Salter 12:22
I don’t know. Like, the question I have is where you renting it? And the meantime, because you leave? Yeah, sell till 2016. And you end up moving away? And we didn’t sell till six, like 32 months ago? Like, oh, wait a minute. Okay.

Kaulana Shum 12:36
Oh, we just barely sold it. So on 13 we’ve been in the house for five, five and a half years. And our family’s growing. Right. So we had two kids at the time. We have three now. And, and the two kids in the townhouse, we’re just kind of getting kind of close. Like it was just kind of small. So we’re like, Let’s buy a house. And so what the yard and interestingly, back then it was all up to me. It’s all again, you know, buying him. I’m a sales guy, like, but like making purchasing decisions and like, wheeling and dealing is like kind of a game, you know. And so we’re like, Alright, let’s look for a house and all the houses that were you know, it’s funny, it was like, I was choking when when Nicole would be like, hey, look, this house. It’s like 385,000 and I’m like, Oh, that’s like way too much. Right. But like looking back, I’m like, if I bought it, it’ll be worth like 600 now, you know, but yeah. But anyway, we saw this house. I was like, marginally more expensive than the townhouse. But it had a really big plot of land. It was it was a it was a model home. In the community right next door to the town house. It was like a, like a two minute drive from our from our townhouse. And in the model home, interestingly, wasn’t a it was not one of those model homes where they like deck it out. It was like the opposite. They’re like, this is the base model. This is what you get

Phil Salter 13:53
for you. Okay.

Kaulana Shum 13:55
It wasn’t nice, right? It just had a big yard. And so, um, landscaped yard, which is important to us, right. And so, we, we saw it, and it was on the market for 30 days, and, and they dropped it like $10,000, right. And I was like, this is our chance, right? Like, they’re, they’re desperate sounds like they’re desperate. And so we walked through it, and we’re like, we like the house. Don’t love it. He’s got some good bones, you know, love space. It’s like a 3000 square foot home, which is like, huge compared to what we had in the townhouse. And so I told I told Nicole, I was like, hey, let’s make an offer for it. But let’s like, let’s like, let’s lowball it, you know, and see what happens. And our mortgage guy or our realtor was like, are you sure you want to offer that little, you know, and like, yeah, you know? And he’s like, okay, so he puts the offer through, and like, within like two hours, we get a counteroffer back and you’re like, Hey, we’re really interested in this, but you got to raise the price. And we’re like, no, like, we want this price. You know, because what’s the worst thing to say? No. And so we went back and forth with our realtor. And like, I think we were using Buy like a nominal like five grand or whatever. Right and and then they accept it within the hour right? And then like later on like the mortgage the the realtor was like, dude, I can’t believe you did that. He’s like a totally worked out. He’s like, dude, you know why they bought so quickly was because they they bought in our house and contingency they had to sell that house to get into and they need to sell it within 10 more days like they’re screwed. Like, why didn’t you tell me this earlier? Because then I would have I would have been offered even less, you know? Yeah.

Phil Salter 15:25
Oh, sounds like he might not have had your best interests in mind. Like, he’s no, it’s kind of funny that he’s like, so surprised. It’s like, Listen, this what you do, bro? That’s your job, man. You know, like, that’s so hard to find like the, because you don’t really know until you work with someone and maybe learn in retrospect, like, Oh, dang, I don’t realize that they were as bad as it were. Or maybe you’re like, Oh, they actually were better than I thought. Because when you have to learn more realities, but kind of seems like he wasn’t the best.

Kaulana Shum 15:49
Yeah, you know, and the thing was, was like he was young, like I actually I actually were friends on LinkedIn. He actually moved to the software industry afterwards. He was he was young, I think it was probably I don’t know, maybe three or four years younger than I was. And it was, it was his first first real real estate gig, you know? Okay. So I think it was like the junior Rep. Like, I think it was a I don’t know how real estate works. I think he’s like attached to a feel like a more senior. Yeah, I

Phil Salter 16:14
think that’s pretty common. Like, they kind of get the advantage of having being part of a brokerage that they give them part of their commission, but they get their help, like, Hey, can you help me? Maybe with the Patreon or figuring things out? So yeah, maybe that’s what it was? Yeah, no,

Kaulana Shum 16:27
whichever cases we sold the house, we didn’t buy the house. And then we had to sell it to move out to San Francisco. So we turn around sold it because because we talked him down, the value of the house also went up margins a little bit. And so we were able to walk away with like, like a decent amount of cash. When we moved 10 months after we bought the house, so

Phil Salter 16:48
this is all while you still own that one. That original? Yeah.

Kaulana Shum 16:50
So we know the other one. Yeah. And we’ve been blessed with like, some great like, render, like, tenants. And some, one of the families was there for five years, five of the seven years that we realize, Wow, that’s so nice. Yeah. And so and then we had and so I feel bad. Because call it a year and a half ago, we’re like, we got this wild hair up our nose, or like, we should sell it, you know? So we told the, the tenants were like, Hey, we’re thinking about selling the house, right? And then all sudden, they’re like, Well, you know, and then we’re like, hey, just kidding. After after like a month, we’re like, just kidding. We’re not. And then they’re like, well, we’re already looking for a new house. So. So they ended up like buying a house and I’m leaving, we’re like, shoot, like now we got to find.

Phil Salter 17:34
That’s a hard what actually happened to us. We were living. We were living in a townhome before we bought our condo actually be renting before we bought this house. And they told us like because we’re using some, like management company in the management company came to us and said, Hey, they’re going to be selling it. And so and I don’t remember the specific details is something about maybe as having to leave earlier than the contract, but probably not that. I don’t remember, all I know is we’re like, Alright, fine. Let’s look again for house because when we look to the past, or like, I think it was in a place then we had a little higher budget than in the past. We looked and we end up finding this house. And we’re like, sweet, so we go to them like, hey, guess what? We found a place it’s gonna be fine. And then the bachelor come he’s like, Oh, they decided not to sell and like, why did you freakin tell us? You know, it’s like, I’m like glad because you know, we found this house and we love it. It was the it was the perfect house. Like all the houses we looked at, at the time in our budget, see, oh, yeah, we actually liked and we really liked and we’re like, what’s the catch? You know, but we worked out so good for you. But I was gonna ask you as a did you go through a management company when you’re renting this house? Or did you kind of do it yourself?

Kaulana Shum 18:40
So we originally the first six years, we did have our own because we were we were living like two minutes away. Right? So like, we had for the first year and a half of renting it out. We had three tenants. It was like three short term tenants. Right. And like, it was kind of a pain in the butt. The first one was I don’t I don’t really remember who why she moved out. Oh, she just bought a house. She came in, she moved out from out of state and bought a house. And so she was out second family moved in. friends of ours actually, which was kind of weird. Like I worked with them, so I knew how much you made. And, and so he they only stayed for like six months. And then we got that third family moved in and the third family super long term. And because we’re that third family was so good at that about paying. I was like, You know what, I’ll be an absentee landlord. And like, we’ll just move in, and they just paid us like there was a little there’s a couple of hiccups over the course of five years, but like nothing to evict them over, you know, and it worked out, you know, and so when they moved out, though, I was like, Well, I’m not. I haven’t been to Utah, like after moving away. We’ve only been back like a couple times, you know, so I’m not going to go back just to find a tenant. So I had a friend that owns a management company, a property management company, and call him up and he’s like, Hey, I’ll Strike you up a deal. And I was like, perfect, let’s do it. So he, he actually did all the work for me. And we were able to raise the rent to cover basically a cover his fee. So we’re still making the same amount. And the, the good news is that because we put down 20% on the house, we’re cash flowing every single month, which was, which was nice. And, and the way to do that is you just don’t spend that money, you stick it in a bank account. So like when something comes up, you got money to be able to do it. And we ended up it came in handy a couple times when we’re like, oh, man, like we’re a little short this month for whatever. Right? So that was kind of pull from it. I’m sure there’s a tax implication now that I think about it, but Oh, no.

Phil Salter 20:40
We used to like doing your but it seems like that’s something people probably need to realize. It’s not like, Oh, I have this ring coming. Oh, by the way there’s going to be repairs is going to be does it come up and you can’t just you have to have money set aside. So it’s not just money going into your pocket necessarily. Yes. But you know, that a three month they’re paying your principal for you, they’re paying those things. And so it’s that’s building its value for you. Yeah, as well as the market, you know, since during this time was increasing, right, so the value is going up as well. And that way, so that’s cool.

Kaulana Shum 21:12
So there’s there’s a certain value also in the tenant, right? So like, when I was without the property management company, I was dealing directly with the tenant, and just great, great, great tenants, like I would be friends in real life if I was if we live close to him, you know, and I remember like, when something came up, he’s like, Hey, man, like, just FYI, the dishwasher broke. But we just went ahead and just replaced it. And I was like, Oh, that is like, unheard of. Well, you know, and at that point, I was like, Look, I’ll pay for it. Because it’s, it should be my responsibility. But back then they paid for it. Or, or Hey, FYI, the paint chipping off over here. I just want to end repayment for you or whatever, like having them do all that stuff was like, I mean, it was so low maintenance for me. I just paid for like when the AC went out, you know, I just

Phil Salter 22:02
I think anyone listening should realize this is a typical, right? It is very atypical.

Kaulana Shum 22:07
Yes. And to the point where like, I was like, This is way too easy. And that’s why I like you’re such as I mean, it was it was kind of my own doing when they moved away. I was like, anything, you know,

Phil Salter 22:18
but I mean, it’s good of you because you want to give him a heads up, but it’s like, oh, no, maybe Libra thought I should have been a little more certain before I brought it up, you know?

Kaulana Shum 22:25
Yeah. And the other thing too in Utah, I don’t know if it’s if it’s a common practice in Utah. And California, you raise the rent, the longer someone stays there, you continue raising the rent, which didn’t, which is not normal. I thought that was I thought that was weird. I don’t know if that’s did you have to deal with that at all, when you’re when you’re renting from the condo?

Phil Salter 22:44
I’m not that I was only there for like 10 months or a year, but I have I remember being in an apartment for five years and the rent being raised at a certain point. I mean, that’s pretty normal. I’m pretty sure. That’s I think that’s normal, you know, and that’s the one that must be Yeah, I

Kaulana Shum 23:00
don’t know, right. So like, and so when, after, like three years, Nicola was like, Hey, we should probably like raise the rent to like market value. And I was like, but I don’t want to, like lose our tenants. So we’ve made a conscious decision not to raise the rent. So like, by the time they left, I think it was it was it was it was a good deal all around, because like our our taxes only rose like marginally. And so it wasn’t like we’re paying any more, really for our mortgage. So we’re like, you know what, like, let’s just keep a good thing going. And let’s not raise the rent. Because here’s another thing too, like if you threaten to raise the rent, and they end up moving them like that one month of the house being the property being vacant, like, however many hundreds of dollars or 1000s of dollars if you’re in California, and was it worth it for?

Phil Salter 23:49
Yeah, that’s the calculations, right. I mean, that’s a really good point. You know, the question is, How easy is it to get great tenants again, if they’re that great, then yeah, that is worth a lot to you. That’s its own asset. Like you were kind of saying, I think it’s hard because you get

Kaulana Shum 24:02
these tenants and our tenants on paper weren’t great. They had they just came out from bankruptcy. They’re just moved here, you know, but the reason why I took him was because I met them. I saw their bank account, you asked him for the bank account information, they have like, enough money, and they’re, you know, and I was like, you know, I they seem like really good people, which I guess that’s probably not the best way to run a business. You can’t just go by gut, but

Phil Salter 24:31
it works out for you this time. Yeah, totally worked out for us. Right. And so I think ultimately comes down to that gut feeling I was thinking about some things I’ve come across recently where I feel like my default is to be like, skeptical of that approach you because I’m doing this podcast, I have a photography business and people offer to do things I can help you with this. I cannot be with that. And I’m always like, get out of here your scammer. That’s my first thought. You know, as I started realizing lately, why don’t I start asking questions and then determine from those questions and how they answered them. Yeah, you really Have something that could help me because if you can show me that you some, you know, some proof or some mystery of like, when if you put $100 here, I can get you 300 here, you know, whatever the numbers work, I’ll give it a shot. Yeah, asking those questions, but then ultimately, someone could be throwing a bunch of fake numbers and you got to go your gut. That’s kind of your, your last test, I think.

Kaulana Shum 25:21
Yeah. And that’s, that’s 100%. What I did was just the gut. And thankfully, like I said, there was only a couple of times over the five years, I’m like, they didn’t pay me my mortgage, they didn’t pay me rent, you know, and then, and then they like, caught up on it, like, the next month or whatever. And also, the other thing for me, the reason why it worked out for me was that living in California, all of a sudden, my my income had to increase from my cost of living. So I think I was only paying like 850 bucks for my mortgage over at the townhouse. And so I was like, what’s the worst at the very worst, they’ll pay? I’m only out 850 bucks. Yeah, like, that’s, that’s the worst. And it’s like, every saved up over the course of however long they’re there, I can cover that in the, in the in the, in the savings I got from the rent, you know, in that bank account. So,

Phil Salter 26:08
so they were paying enough they had a you had enough surplus after paying the mortgage from what you’re charged on that it was accruing. So it’s like, yeah, you’re right, like the money was there. Ultimately, you pay the mortgage that month, if someone’s not living there. So you know, bringing down your principal, it’s still like, yeah, it’s not the ideal. Well, that’s the worst case scenario, that’s

Kaulana Shum 26:26
not so bad. In fact, by the end, after we had enough money, like padding in there, we ended up throwing extra towards principal. So like, every month we’re paying, I think was like $280 extra towards the principal. And so it was really fun after I mean, but by the time we sold it, so we had the mortgage for almost 15 years. So like, now the principal was was a lot larger percentage than it was before. So it was kind of fun to see, like, every time I checked, like the balance of our mortgage, which was not very often like once every few months, I’m like, hey, like we’re making, we’re making a difference here. Like what do

Phil Salter 27:02
you mean, the percentage going towards principal was Yeah, increasing. And it started to kind of maybe ramping up, you’re like, Oh, this is right. In the beginning, you’re like, Tang, so little goes towards, it’s all like, yeah, it’s so much towards interest. And then slowly over time, that percentage towards interest goes down, and the principal amount goes up, and you’re paying the same amount every month, obviously. But yeah, it totally was like, just it was fun to see it, you know? Oh, yeah. That’s cool. That’s cool. Yeah. Yeah. So would you say ultimately, you like learn from the whole experience? Like, if you were to go back? Would you do anything differently? Obviously, things worked out and you learn things, but yeah, I would have

Kaulana Shum 27:39
hindsight, 2020? Sure. Um, I would have, I would have kept the second house, we had to sell that second house, because we did the I did the math on that. And I was like, well, because I didn’t put down 20% of the house on that one, I only put down like, I forgot how much I put down on it. It doesn’t matter. It wasn’t enough. But that was what I had to charge and rent would barely cover would barely cover the mortgage that we had to cover, you know, and that was like that means that means any problems that arise, we can’t cover that. Right. And I believe we had to pay for a gardener. I don’t know about that. Right? So I was like, if you’re paying a gardener 100 bucks a month to come and mow the lawn and do this and that I was like, that puts us over, right. And so we’re actually losing money. every single month. I didn’t know that. Freaking the software company, its software industry in Utah would explode over the next you know, six years. And if I kept it, we would have made, like, if I sold it today, it probably be worth you know, $300,000 more than I paid for it, you know,

Phil Salter 28:44
but I didn’t know like you say hindsight, right?

Kaulana Shum 28:48
Yeah, yeah. Plus, it was I didn’t need the stress, right. Like, I didn’t need this. I couldn’t handle the stress. And so, but but again, like if I did anything differently, I might have maybe I would have seen how I could have like, I don’t know, I would have seen it if I could have made the monthly payment a little bit lower. So I could have like, feasibly because like you read Rich Dad Poor Dad, you know and Rich Dad, Poor Dad, it’s all about passive income from like rental properties and stuff, you know, and so I have a friend that that owns like six properties in Utah,

Phil Salter 29:19
just kind of as like a final thing I would. I’m curious All right, I have a thought is so you know, you’re talking earlier about the arm, you know, the our mortgage. And yeah, obviously if you went back and you talk to yourself and say, Hey, here’s some things to consider. You should probably do just traditional, because now mortgage or whatever. But I’m a big believer that mistakes are a good thing. And that you’re without them. We if we if we are so cautious, we never make mistakes, then we’re going to not be living a full life. And they’ve been so risk averse. So long in my life that like until recently I realized I need to start stop being so afraid of taking risk and see what great things I can actually accomplish. You know, it’s true. How do you feel about that idea?

Kaulana Shum 30:03
I it’s 100% true. And as you know, when we first met, it was because I took a job selling door to door in Riverside, right. And like, risk was very low. When I was in college. Like, I remember, in college I had, like, I remember looking at my bank account and being like, 450 bucks in the bank account, like I’m doing going to Del Taco to my boys, you know, like, you know, it didn’t really matter how, like, it was so easy, as long as rent was paid. And I was going to class on time, I was like, man, things are good. You know, I’m, in fact, that summer in Riverside. I think I came back to school with the exact same amount of money in my bank account as I did when I went down there. Like I didn’t make any money. I just paid for my experience down there in Riverside. And then when we got married, when I got married, I remember pulling up a bank account and like saying, like, okay, so rent is how much for this apartment and then being like, dude, it was read was like $580 as a married couple, and then like, probe Center Street Provo, and I have like, $660 in my bank account, and I was like, I’ve got to get my act together. Quick, you know, I need a job, you know. But I realized that bestest, my mentality has always been take some risks, because that’s just the way it is. Let me let me tell you this story, too. So the very first job I got was 17. When I was 17 years old, I was a lifeguard and at a at a private pool. So it was like super cushy, like, I think the two years I did it. I didn’t even have to, like ever jump into the water. Unless I wanted to like cool, right? Like, it was there pay me to get a tan it was it was pretty awesome. I got paid 515 an hour. Unless I was doing a party then it was like 565 an hour, you know? 80 bucks. Yeah, big bucks. Right? It was like, okay, you know, I went to college when I was at BYU. I don’t know if you remember. That’s how I knew Dan Morgan was working at teriyaki sticks.

Phil Salter 32:03

Kaulana Shum 32:04
Yep. on campus. And this is this was actually a very, like, prolific memory, right? This is actually just changed my outlook on everything I did, right. So I got paid, I don’t know, somewhere like 515 520 an hour or something like that. And I only worked like 20 hours a week. So it wasn’t like very much I made 100. Yeah, so I made about like 200 and something dollars every two weeks, and call it like 200, like low 200. So it was never that high. One week, my boss was like, Hey, we got women’s week coming here at BYU. I need someone to work some extra hours. And I was like, me, I want it like I need I’m gonna make some money, baby, you know, and I put in a ton of overtime, like a ton of overtime. And I remember thinking I was like, Man, this next paychecks gonna be sick, you know, except we didn’t say sick back then we said something different. I don’t know what we said back in 2005. Right. And, yeah, talk, I think I’d like off the off the hook

Phil Salter 33:04
back then maybe off the show, this could be all that in the bag of chips.

Kaulana Shum 33:08
And so I remember being like, man, I worked so many hours. And I cut my paycheck and I pulled it out the envelope. And it was like $255 and I was like,

Phil Salter 33:18
what I like so much extra work, you know, for another extra 50 bucks or something? or less.

Kaulana Shum 33:26
And I was like, Man that wasn’t working at all, you know? So and So, um, my experience. So when I first got married, I was like, hey, Nicole, I don’t want to work at teriyaki steaks, like, unless we’re both working. But even then, like, we’re not going to pay. Like I got, if I if I did this, like all month, it wouldn’t even pay for one month of rent for for our little apartment. So she was like, Hey, you should do summer sales again. Right? And so I went down to Austin, I did I end up doing two summers in Austin selling pest control. And I actually did really, really well. That was that was actually the very first time in my mind. This was like my first like, entrepreneurial like, this is up to me to like my success is based on me walking down the street and knocking on doors, right? Yeah. And the first like, couple months. First call it like maybe six weeks. I was terrible at it right? And I’ve followed all the training, I did everything that like my manager was like teaching me to do you know, and I was like super frustrated because at that point, I probably only made like maybe three or $400 or I don’t know some really crappy. And I was like not even worth it. And then I remember I remember one time. Like before I hit the doors I was out I was sitting on the street like on the curb and Nicole called and she’s like how you doing? I’m like freaking hate this job. You know, like, I don’t know what I’m doing out here. And she’s like, Listen, like you keep on trying to do what other people were trying to tell you to do. Just be yourself like people like Kalani shum, right. Just be yourself and Sell. And I was like, okay, you know, so I threw out all the training, and knocked on the next door to very literally the next door. I don’t say literally very often but literally the next door and knocked on it and made and sold that guy, right. And I’m like, Oh, yeah, and I didn’t follow a script, I just kind of did my thing just was Kalina shown, you know, and and that day I sold like three accounts which was like, I would go all week and maybe sell three before you know and I sold three in the day. And then I and then if you do the math on that, like the hours I spent doing that was like way more than $5.20 an hour. And so I did that for a couple of summers, I went during the school year, I knocked on, I just picked that was my job I went and sold. I mean, you name it Comcast. So Comcast for a little bit, I sold the fiber optic internet, I sold whatever, right? And, and the reason why I did that was because I could spend three hours a night and make 150 bucks, 200 bucks, right? for three hours a night. And I was like, I’m never going to go back to an hourly job again, right, like I can, where I have control over how much I made. Wow.

Phil Salter 36:10
It’s basically just realizing, oh, my time is worth more. If I’m selective of what I do with it. I need to do things that make sense. And not waste those precious hours that that I’m other value. You know, honestly, dude, when you told me the story about your wife saying to people, like you’re, you’re good, or what do you say people like the people that come on the show? Just Yeah, yeah, that gave me the chills dude. Like, literally, I was like, dang, it’s so true to be authentic to who we are. And maybe some people their authenticity is like following the script. I’m not saying that’s not there’s not a player that maybe maybe that’s them. But if that’s not you, like, That’s amazing. Like if we can really realize our own value, not just in the hours that we put in, right, like our hours are worth something but ourselves, we are so valuable. And we have so much to offer. And if we can be authentic to who we are and believe in ourselves, oh my gosh, like, nothing can stop us. And that’s, that’s, that’s 100% The reason why my career went towards sales. And then like now towards like sales management, right? Because like,

Kaulana Shum 37:15
the first the first four years of marriage, I was on 100%. commission. And, and it was like, dude, like, it was great. Like, the amount of time I put in all sudden you get a paycheck. And it’s like, ooh, like, this is a lot better than that, what I could have done, you know, working for wherever, right? And so, the only problem was, was that the back then when before we had kids, oh, yeah, I’ll take all the risk, you know, all the risk. And then we had our first child, Paxton, and I was working at a company called no more mortgage. And it was a call center. It was a it was a two step close. It was like I had to call a bunch of people, and like, qualify them and then pass them off to to a closer basically, and we had to like follow up, we totally follow a script like that, which is contrary to what I just told you earlier, I was really good at reading that script, though. While I was successful, but um, but the paychecks I was getting at that job, were I’ve never made more, take that back up until that point, or for it for 10 years after I’d never made more money in a single paycheck, then when I worked at no more mortgage, but I also didn’t make as little money on a paycheck as I did a no more mortgage. And the problem was, is that I do the math, right? I’d be like, Alright, if we made extra money, I threw it in savings. You By the way, like, one thing I learned early on when I was a kid was you save money, right? Don’t like save up for a rainy day. And so like, we made a lot of extra money that went in a savings account that was unattached to our personal like our banking or checking account. So it’s hard to get money out of it. Like you had to go through a process, get money out of it. So we’d get money, we’d throw it in there. And then I’m like, okay, with a checking account. We need to pay mortgage on the first and it takes two weeks for me to get paid on these deals. That means this week, I’ve got to sell X amount of dollars worth of whatever right? And that was super stressful, right? And like I started like gaining weight I started like just being on house I was drinking energy drinks, double fisting it, you know, like just just a lot of you know, couldn’t stay awake or stressed all the time. And that’s when I was like, dude, I’ve got to change the way I make my money, right? Like I don’t want to do sales. How do I how do I do this? And had a conversation and with a guy who worked at omniture if you remember omniture omniture was the CEO of Domo, Josh James he started omniture which got bought out by Adobe. Who you worked for or you worked for or you never

Phil Salter 39:48
Adobe know, obviously the inside sales and inside sales something.

Kaulana Shum 39:52
Yeah. Anyway, so you knew that you knew that you knew that little like the the stories right and so anyway, I talked to this guy. He was he was single. It was like 29. And he was like, I was like, hey, so tell me about your job at ometer. He was like, dude, I love it. And he’s like, yeah, you get a base commission or base salary. And you make Commission on top of that. And I’m like, Whoa, tell me about the salary. Mission thing, again, a base salary thing? Like concept. Yeah. And so I was like, Okay, and so he’s like, Yeah, man, I just closed the $4.2 million deal. Last year, last month, and I’m like, I had no concept for like, sizes of deals, no concept, right? And I was like, what kind of commission rate do you make on that? Right? I’m thinking like, I don’t know, like a point two 5% or whatever. He’s like, Oh, I make like 18% on it. And I did the math. And I was like, dang, oh, wait, you make 80%. And you have a base out of base. Like, tell me what you got to do. I’ll work for you. Like, like, you just tell me and I’ll follow you, you know. And so that’s what got me into software sales, right? Because I was like, okay, like that, that might create the stability I need, while giving me the flexibility to take my risks, right, which is like, you get a base salary that pays your bills. But then after that, like everything else you make on top of that, is gravy. And like that, to me was like, the perfect mix. Yeah, so that was the software, probably 2010, I worked for at task. And then from 2010. Till now, like I’ve been in software ever since.

Phil Salter 41:17
Good for you, man. And it’s like that kind of being in sales. There’s that pressure. Obviously, you found what worked like I need to be able to have that security so that it’s not just stress completely. But you have to believe in yourself. And and it’s kind of entrepreneurial in a way in and of itself. And that Hey, man, like you said, when you did door to door, it’s about what I can, like, accomplish here. Yeah, I don’t go to work. And like, just try not to get fired or get my salary. You know, like, that’s another way to live your life. And there was my arm again on my chair. But, uh, that’s really awesome. It’s an adjustable arm on that. Yeah. Yeah. Every time we lean on it, it goes down. It happened before we started recording. That’s why But no, but honestly, you have to like, what was I saying? Gosh, no finding what worked for me, right? being myself. I know what it’s done to me as you. Like, ask questions. Go to people that know more than you they’re doing. Maybe he was doing kind of what you’re doing. But at a level that you said, I want to be where you are. Yeah. How did you What are you doing to be here and not being so stubborn or like self conscious, or let the ego get in the way and say, I don’t want to be embarrassed if he realizes how low I am. Or maybe I don’t want to seem like I don’t know what I’m doing. Or there’s a lot of things that go out of your mind that can stop you from reaching out to someone that’s so valuable. So that’s a really good note. here’s

Kaulana Shum 42:31
here’s something to that, like, here’s I tell this to anybody that ever asks, like what what, like, what’s what’s helped me in my career, right, which is, it’s my network. At the end of the day, my network is the most important thing. Almost every single job I’ve ever had was because of somebody I knew, right. And the job I have right now I work for a company called Red gate software. And I got job, I got the job because of someone I worked with at the last company, who used to work at Red gate and went back to red gate, and then brought me along with them. Right. And it’s like, I wouldn’t have done this job unless I worked at the last place. And so what I was gonna say was the net network thing is something that’s kind of like a garden, right? Like, and it’s funny because like, I’m if, like, Phil, I’m the worst at communication sometimes on the phone. And my friends I talk to on a regular basis will say the same thing. They’re like you text Kalina, like 5050 chance that he’ll text you back, you know, and I hate I hate that. Because I don’t mean to be like that. But the problem is, is that like I’m so like, it takes a lot of like mental energy to make sure you’re on top of developing and what’s the word like, like watering your plants, like maintaining maintaining your, your relationship to your network, one of the things that I’ve tried to do, and I and I will put a lot of time and energy towards this is continue to network and meeting new people. So I’ll try to take an hour, once a week, to go and talk with somebody that I haven’t talked to in a while, or meet up with somebody new, right. And it was hard during a pandemic, you can meet up for lunch and stuff, but like, I’ve met with so many people now learn something from them, right. And like, and I take that and it’s interesting, because like, I saw this one time I did this, I met up with somebody. And he showed up, he showed up with a notepad. And and I was like, Oh, that’s kind of weird, you know, but then like, as I said, stuff he’s like, that’s really interesting. And then like you pause pen and like write it, you know, and I’m like, oh, like I feel like kind of a little bit of pressure now, you know, but like, I like that idea. Right? Like, I’m

Phil Salter 44:32
like, this is a new person every week once so that I

Kaulana Shum 44:36
can you know, like I haven’t like like one of one of one guy was just a friend of a friend, right? Like I moved out here to LA and one of the guys I worked with in San Francisco was like I’ll do one of my best college buddies was down there. You should hit him up. So I hit him up and he’s like, Yeah, let’s go grab a coffee, which is what people do in California, but which is what you don’t do in Utah. And so and so I showed up and was Thinking my sparkling water and you’re drinking his coffee, but like, I was able to kind of pick his brain a little bit about like the software world in Orange County, which Orange County is not like San Francisco, there’s not like software everywhere. So it’s important to have that little network. Yeah. Especially like if you’re in a niche. So I, as you as you, as you may know, I was I was part of my career was in sales development, which is outbound prospecting, like the prospecting side of sales, right? So I was really good at I still am very good at like the processes, and establishing a strategy to build do some like, outbound like phone calls and emails and things, right. And that sales development world is very niche in the sales industry. And, and so like, when we moved down here, it was really important for me to get to know who was who else was doing that in the area, right. And there’s only like, a few, you know, so it was important for me to like, reach out. So I do LinkedIn networking a lot. I actually pay for a thing called revenue collective, which is a networking company where I network with other software sales leaders, you know, and so I actually, like, put effort into like maintaining these relationship building and maintaining these relationships.

Phil Salter 46:11
Excellent. So if anyone could take from this is that whether you’re in software sales, or in any type of thing, find that where you can network with people that do what you do, build those communities, do it at a higher level, yeah. And also help people that are coming up in the world to because you never know what that’s gonna do for you, as well. So it’s all really good stuff. Man. This has been just a fascinating conversation. And I’m so glad that you took the time man

Kaulana Shum 46:38
to do it. This is fun. This is fun. I wanted you know, there’s it was I also wanted to spend some time reminiscing, you know, there’s a lot of stuff to reminisce about, but like it was just, there was a 2000 2004 to 2006 was a really fun, fun time for me at BYU. You know,

Phil Salter 46:55
me too, man, I have such fond memories of those years, those summers, those semesters hanging out, like, we were living in the same complex, and I think it was the spring semester 2005. And then we ended up getting the same being coming roommates, because we are near each other and we became roommates. And just honestly, just one last thing I’m gonna say, before I let you go is the story. I was asking to start with this open with this, but we just jumped right into it, which was awesome. But I, we, we did this thing where we kind of did like a little like, in our church congregation, there was a thing where we made like movies, like, did like printing where we do, like, we’d show our videos, you know, our movies to the to all the people. And we did that a couple times. But you doing that you had this MAC, mac book. And you were like editing it. And I was like, do this stuff that I think is so cool. Like, I was interested in those things. And, and you inspired me, you didn’t even go into this as a career, but just at the time, just your enthusiasm and your the fact that you figured things out, and you learned how to do this stuff, really excited me and it didn’t make me change what I studied in college, I ended up going into digital media. Yeah, I thought I was gonna do something with video or photography, but I do that kind of on the side. But just that idea, but doing that guy got me introduced to a certain kind of thinking and learning and, and that I think indirectly led to where I am now. You know, it’s just part of that step, we could look back in retrospect and say, Oh, that was a moment that made me shift. And then something else happened later, that made me shift again, but like this hadn’t happened, I wouldn’t have been here to do these other shifts. So I, I hold you in high esteem. For reals, and I have great fond memories of you as a friend in those times back back in the day. So I always thought that you would end up acting by the way. And something I wanted to do, you know? Yeah,

Kaulana Shum 48:47
well, because like you have, I mean, you got your I listen to your podcast, you have a buddy that actually should like be like, hey, hook me up with that as an extra somewhere, you know, I’ve been wanting to do either a podcast or like a YouTube channel or something. But I still I really, I truly had a hard time trying to think of like, what’s the topic, you know, like, you know, and that’s why I like, I like the whole personal finance, like this whole thing that you’re doing, because this is pertinent, as important to me now as an adult than it was when I was like, 23, you know, yeah,

Phil Salter 49:17
we’re on this. We’re basically the same age. And it’s a certain point where you realize I realized there’s people out there who are different levels at this age, stage of their life, but there’s plenty of people that are like me that and even people who have higher you know, beyond beyond where I am still want to say how can I do more? How can I learn more? Like, you know, you start to take it seriously, like, Man, I’m, I’m almost 40 like I need to do, like get stuff in line, you know? Yeah. And what I’ve, what I’ve learned from this is not originally it was like, hey, I need to be ready for retirement. But I’m certainly realized through all these conversations, why would I wait till retirement to start living my life, like I can start building wealth like immediately and that’s what I’m working on now is like, Okay, get some passive income. Let’s get things rolling. You know, so it’s been really exciting. It’s been

Kaulana Shum 49:58
a I have a That’s, he’s like maybe 10 more years. He’s like, 10 years older than us. Yeah. Just so much further along his career than me, you know, he’s in the st. He’s in software also, but like, just so much further along, he can afford, like, he was able to afford a house in California, which is crazy to me still, you know, like, um, you know, he’s gonna afford to, like travel when he wants to travel. And I was just like, how do I get there? You know, and, you know, and it’s interesting, because I met him up at I don’t know if this is like, worth recording. I mean, like, I don’t know, if it’s worth, like, adding in there. But like, a minimum, but a beach one time, we’re just chilling, hanging out. And he’s like, dude, you got to get out of sales development, right? Because sales development, such a niche in software sales, he’s like, that is your ceiling right there, like, go and like, get into, like, start managing a team. That’s not software that sales a little bit. And I was like, but the hard part is you take a step back, when you leave, like I rose to as high as I was going to get in sales development. In order for me to go to the next level over the closing, like account executive stuff, I’d have to drop down a level or two even, you know, and then pay as well. And that was like really scary to me, you know, and so like, but I took his advice, because I mean, dude, like, a lot more advanced in his career than I am. He must know these things, you know. So

Phil Salter 51:17
that’s what it takes, man. And that’s why man, this is stuff that’s come up. What I’ve talked about is just like, sometimes we have to make pivots that seem like can be a blow to our ego or can be scary or can be like a step back in the hopes of making steps forward. But you get some good advice and you say, you know what, I’m gonna go with my gut, you’re going to take the risk. So awesome, dude. Thanks again, colada for joining me today. It’s been so awesome catching up and just kind of hearing your story and where you’ve been over the last decade and a half since we really see each other. If anybody wants to add to the conversation, if they have questions for Kalina, about what it is to be in sales, software sales, or anything like that, or what are anything that you can email me at No Better Time podcast@gmail.com I can forward those questions to Kalina. And who knows, maybe we can have another conversation, you know, dig into something, but thanks for listening. Until next time, just realize it’s never too late to take those risks to learn new things, you know, whether you’re 25 or 55, you can make changes that will improve your present, not just your future. Alright, thanks again. Thanks a lot. Bye

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38: Building a Corporate Career – Betsy Jorgensen


Today’s guest is the amazing Betsy Jorgensen! She discusses the things she has learned as she has made her way upwards in various large companies during her career so far. She has found herself doing things she did not originally expect like managing people and negotiating contracts with vendors.

Even if you do not see yourself staying where you are, or even doing what you are doing forever, it’s still important to learn how to make the most of your opportunities, especially when negotiating starting salaries and raises. Understanding how things work behind the scenes at companies in general, and learning how things work at your current company is very important to not leaving anything on the table when the time comes to negotiate.

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Phil Salter 0:00
All right, welcome to no better time. I’m Phil Salter, and I’m joined today with Betsy Jorgensen. Welcome. Thank you. All right. Oh, yeah. So happy to have you. I know, we’ve been kind of going back and forth for like a week or two now, and not super long. But I’m just really excited that we’re doing this. And that you’re giving me some of your weekend,

Betsy Jorgensen 0:18
I hope are giving me easy questions, Phil.

Phil Salter 0:20
Oh, they’re gonna be hard balls. It’s like, you’re gonna get into all the political issues. Like just kidding. Um, no, but Betsy is someone who’s just so awesome. In fact, her husband, Max is my workout buddy. And we go all the time to the gym. to something I’ve always appreciate you at Max’s as soon as you guys moved into the neighborhood. Like, what? How long has it been three years now? A little over two years? Like how long were you here before you guys really started reaching out and started.

Betsy Jorgensen 0:46
I remember it was just a couple weeks then we had like a neighborhood little barbecue. Of course, had we moved in just a year ago, that wouldn’t have been possible. But so luckily, we’ve got struth ago before the world of COVID. And we had remember having neighborhood barbecue on the driveway and getting know a lot of people that way. And it just snowballed from there. And now we’re all just hanging out all the time.

Phil Salter 1:05
Yeah, it’s great. In fact, I had an episode. A couple, like last week, the week before I talked about how hard it can be to make friends as an adult. and the value of that has not just you know, socially, but even just like in your career, you just kind of learned things. Even if it’s not like, hey, this person got me a job. You just learn things, and it helps you and your whole life in so many areas. Yep. Is it something you guys had always done in the past? Or was it like, Was it scary to reach out to all these people?

Betsy Jorgensen 1:32
It was a littlescary. No, we have not always done this. In the past, we’ve always been somewhat like transient marbre we’ve lived so we got married. In Utah, we moved to Arizona following some stuff for max, he was getting trained to be a motorcycle mechanics, we went to Arizona, and we knew it was short term. So something about knowing you’re not in a place for very long, makes it hard to want to plant roots. If you know to do it over again, I would still make the effort. But we lived in Arizona briefly. Then we had a one year internship for him and Milwaukee. Meanwhile, I’m working remote through all of this. But we’re in Milwaukee, we knew it was another just one year internship. So once again, we kind of we didn’t go out of our way to make any friendships, and we move back to Utah. But again, it wasn’t we were in a rental and something about being in a rental in our minds was like, well, we’re not here permanently, either. So we’ll go out of our way and invest in the people around us, which is a giant mistake. So when we bought our house, we made a very, very intentional effort to get to know the neighborhood. I mean, these were you and everybody else, right? People were going to be around for a long time, hopefully, and, you know, a lot of the time. So it was a very, it was different for us a little scary for us. But it’s paid off.

Phil Salter 2:40
So Oh, for sure. And it’s funny because I had a very similar situation where we lived at different apartments and places. And then at a certain point, we get a house, you know, like, Oh, this feels different. And you’re right. So it can be a mistake to not still try to make those connections. But it seems like you can get this attitude of like, no one’s reaching out to me. I’m not reaching out to them. Yep. And it’s probably more in our heads anything. I don’t think anybody actually writes us off. But we kind of feel that way sometimes. But so much value in making those those connections. And that was a huge example I brought up as you guys coming to neighborhood and starting this barbecues and making me realize, Oh, you really can like live that American dream and have your neighbors be your friends and spend Fourth of July. So for 2020 together. Well, you see like the king of the hill where it’s the guys all just hanging out on the sidewalk talking all the time. And I just I love that because it just the neighborhood. We’re always just up together on our lawn chairs, kids are running around, yes, rocking, and particularly two summers ago, like two falls ago, like 2019 the kids would get on there like what those like battery powered cars just go on. There’s a cul de sac and just going in circles. And we’re sitting on lawn chairs chat, and it was great. But one thing I want to ask you, Betsy is something I’ve been trying to ask and I don’t always do it. But uh like, what was relationship? What was your relationship to money because the premise of my podcast is I’m trying to like, stop being afraid to learn more about finances and investing and, and re preparing for the future and also having a more awesome present. Like, I can build wealth now. I don’t have to wait till I retire. But I look back at my childhood and what it was like to me, and it was, you know, not what I would have wanted it to be but it was what it was. But how about you? Well, this money like did you get an allowance? Did you or did you save money

Betsy Jorgensen 4:21
inconsistently No, never saved? It wasn’t something we talked about as a family. So what there wasn’t like a very open learning environment. I remember as a teenager, my mom just gave me $100 a month she just it was our clothing allowance. And I remember we would we had like church dances all the time. So I’d always use my clothing allowance to get a cute new outfit to impress the cute boy, the church dance. And so honestly I haven’t learned too much about we didn’t learn too much about money and it was just something we didn’t really talk about. So I went to college and I had to set up a bank account for the first time I had no money to put in said bank account had to get money. first job, I never really had the pressure to get a job either growing up because my parents paid for all my things, right? I really competitive soccer. And that was not the older I get, the more I appreciate how much money they spent on the things I was interested in as a kid. Yeah. But you know when to go to the movies, my mom would give me a 20. So there wasn’t a you know, if you want to do this, you need to earn that much back then, of course, appreciate it. And now I’m realizing maybe some tougher love would have been good, because, you know, to start me off on like a, you know, learn learning more about you want things, things.

Phil Salter 5:37
Yeah, I think that’s interesting, because I think if I’m giving you money to buy clothes, it goes way beyond what a lot of parents do, I think, which is really cool. Because you, I’m sure there were times you realized, you blew it all and maybe a pair of shoes or one outfit, and you’re like, oh, now that’s gone. Yeah, definitely still some money lessons that Yeah, so that’s good. You know,

Betsy Jorgensen 5:55
how do you, you know, and so I always got the 100. Like, this was just probably from ages 12 to there was like, probably four years or $100 a month I got to spend on whatever I want. But essentially, it was clothing. And yes, and my mom did not like going clothing shopping with us. So it was kind of like, Alright, go to the mall with your friends. Back when that was a thing. Say how far can you stretch the $100 every month, you can get a nice Abercrombie shirt, so you can feel really cool. But there goes like half your money. And so we still definitely some money lessons,

Phil Salter 6:25
which is good. And it’s just kind of a, I kind of have this attitude of, we’re going to learn that we have to earn money at some point. And I think the most valuable lesson is how to manage the money if we have it. So I think a lot a lot of times we focus so much on like, I don’t care, just give my kid allowance, they have to earn it. It’s like Well, yeah, like there’s value there. But I think just giving them some money to say, hey, like, learn some lessons with this. And also figure it out is value in both, right? Yeah, exactly. And then the same parents just gave you 20 if you want to go to the theater, which is good. But that could have also been like, hey, money, just, I don’t really need to worry about it, because it’ll come. But also it can be value there where it’s like a feeling of potential abundance, like money is not such a thing that is so lacking, like, hey, it’s there. I may have to learn how to get it, but it’s out there, you know. So, really interesting, very cool. And so as far as you which I think is really awesome with your families, you are the primary financial earner in your home, you both have ways of making money, obviously, but you’re the full time worker, how’s that for you guys? How’s that been?

Betsy Jorgensen 7:26
And it had, it wasn’t me know, kind of was always that way to a degree. So when we were you know, moving around following Max, his dream of becoming a motorcycle mechanic. I was working remotely for Honeywell at the time I moved to Arizona, got that job, put him through school, help me help, you know, paid off his his loans from his program. And then we moved around and he has internship, we moved back to Utah, and he stayed at that job for a couple years. But once you start having kids, you’re looking at your money very differently. So we had our first and we both still work. So she went to daycare. No regrets with that, because we hadn’t met some really great people. But once we had our son, we had to stop and just look at the budget realistically and say alright, well, putting two kids in daycare is the equivalent of one of your paychecks. So is it worth working, you know, a full month to only take home half of that adding in the stress of drop off pickup. And so we just looked at it from a variety of factors like quality of life, we didn’t like the stress of like, Who’s picking the kids up today. And we were one of us always was like late picking up Harland and it was stressful. And so we’re like, okay, we’re gonna take that out. So we still would have been net positive money if we had kept max in his role at the dealership, but the stress was worth it. So we looked at it and decided that he would stay home as soon as we had our second. So he’s been doing that for two and a half years now. Just a month ago, he picked up a little part time job for some fun money. So honestly, for his motorcycle for being honest here. So um, but it’s been good. I think it’s, it’s not totally rare, but you don’t see it a lot. Maybe it’s more in I don’t know if it’s just in our area or just in general, but it’s definitely like a mindset, you have to like a flip, you have to switch a little bit because I get you know all the doctor’s appointments, both of our phone numbers are on there for the kids, but they always call me instead of Max, they there’s a lot of things that I’m like, Hey, I’m working right now. Can you call my husband so that left son with money but more just kind of moving people’s assumptions about simple things. And

Phil Salter 9:36
culturally speaking, you mean

Betsy Jorgensen 9:37
Yeah, we’re not offended by those things. But then sometimes that does play into money. Of course, too. Like as a woman, I’m very aware of the fact that I might be less inclined or less bold about asking for a raise or doing certain things but I’m the primary breadwinner in our home and I have a responsibility to do my best to bring in income that will provide for our family kind of as you said short term fund money. Long term planning, right? I think about it in both ways. So lots of cultural things to get over. Definitely, you know, for our kids, it’s kind of fun to flip the switch a little bit. And but yeah, it’s been, it’s been good, I love to work, and he’s definitely the patient on the relationship. factor that made more sense. Well, it’s,

Phil Salter 10:22
it’s awesome and why not? Right? So it’s like, if you look at culturally speaking, there’s things where there’s assumptions made, and someone would just assume, oh, if one person is gonna work, I guess it’s the husband. Okay, just because that’s socially. The, I don’t know if dorms work, but just kind of like the majority of it’s more, you could say more common, I guess, is the word. But it’s like, you guys, it’s so common also, for both people in a relationship to be working. There might come a time where you say, okay, is this worth it all the expenses around this and like you said, hey, maybe we’re a net positive, but quality of life is super important and stress and just the time and the energy. So it’s like, if I’m doing all this to make this budget in a day, not worth it. Because if that was your actual salary, you’d say, I’m not taking that job. But you decide what makes the most sense for our family and who’s who’s on a certain path for you. It sounds like you were really liking the path you were on in your career. Yeah, it’s it’s like I want to keep going.

Betsy Jorgensen 11:14
And we also saw his role kind of had hit more of like a plateau right? So it at a dealership, there’s, there’s only so many roles you can move into. And even the really more more tenured people aren’t making that much more than max rd was. And at that time, I was already making more than Max was. And I still saw a lot of room to move up right and have since probably about double what I was making, we made that decision. But, you know, so we can also work, we’re looking at the potential like in Mexico, I love that job. So it was hard. But he also had to work every single Saturday. He worked till seven most weekdays and it just wasn’t really conducive to having two kids either in that sense.

Phil Salter 11:57
So yeah, so it’s like that, but also like, Hey, what are the future options here? Okay, there’s these two things. And it’s interesting that you also mentioned, like, there’s things that you might feel like, for instance, asking for raises, it’s like, you might feel a little more like, like, maybe less aggressive about that, but that I feel the same way. I get nervous around that. So it’s kind of funny, but also make these assumptions that like, hey, right, this way, women are that way. Well, maybe. But also, it could be totally,

Betsy Jorgensen 12:24
you know, and I know other women who are just like, the boldness of the bold, but yeah. Oh,

Phil Salter 12:29
and obviously, there’s cultural ramifications, unfortunately, for some women when they act a certain way. And it’s not taken as it should be, which is ridiculous, but it’s just kind of interesting, cuz I think sometimes I found myself patting myself on the corner, assuming this is just how I am. Yeah, it’s like, I’m not technical, or now I’m, I’m a software engineer. So I guess I’m technical. I just didn’t think I was, you know, so that’s really cool. So as far as you’ve worked for, like, large companies with Yeah, cultural culture, and like, particularly politics involved.

Betsy Jorgensen 12:59
Yeah, my first role was at Honeywell giant company, it was, I guess that’s my second role. But I don’t really like to talk about my first role, because it was just not fun. Anyways, um, let’s just say I’ll just say just, I had two co workers who hated each other so much. And back then I worked at a little Art Gallery, and my office was office was the, you know, two square feet of desk next to the coffee machine in the back room. That’s where I worked. And the two other workers just hate each other’s guts. So they would print something, not they actually needed to print anything, just as an excuse to come into the coffee room and talk to me about the other one. So then I started to build like that. Is it the Pavlovian response? Like what the bell like? I would hear the copy machine and I’d run to the bathroom to like, Oh,

Phil Salter 13:43
wow. Yeah,

Betsy Jorgensen 13:44
I remember a month down the line, one of my co workers came up being very concerned that I had a medical issue. So anyways, just to like paint how bad how much I hated that job. So took the first job I could get, which was as an internal communication specialist at Honeywell, so very big company, it was about 130,000 employees at the time. And then I was there for about three years went to work for it, which is a local company, here in Silicon slopes. That was about 1000, when we got most recently acquired by Adobe, and I work at Adobe, another bigger company, about 20 25,000 people. And definitely, there’s like, there’s politics, just on different scales at all the companies. So it’s just kind of a fun thing to navigate. And I’m learning you know, some about my shortcomings, as you know, where I’m not being bold or confident, or even as a manager, you know, where I’ve got a lot of work to do. And so yes, definitely familiar with kind of small company, big company.

Phil Salter 14:44
And would you say that, like from your perspective, as you’ve looked around it, would you say that being a woman is had positive results or sometimes negative?

Betsy Jorgensen 14:53
You know, I’m sure it’s like anything where you see kind of both, right, like I’ve had bad work experiences. I’m with men, right? And I’ve had comments made or I have a boss, I won’t name but a somewhat recent boss, we used to make comments about my hair a lot. So this is sorry, this is kind of a tangent off the finance this, we’re off the financial train, but

Phil Salter 15:19
it’s all related. I think in my mind,

Betsy Jorgensen 15:20
the work environment, though, like I hadn’t had a boss who would say things like, you know, on a day that I would be wearing my hair cut to naturally carve it curly, she would say something like, you know, just the hypothetical story. Or actually, to actually shoot kind of would tell hypothetical stories and the real stories, but she was telling me the story about somebody that she used to work with, who started to straighten her hair and wear it and slicked back ponytails. And what do you know, within like, a month that one woman was promoted? Like, just like these weird stories that weren’t super relate, you know, relevant and would essentially was portray and say, I don’t like your hair,

Phil Salter 16:00
like a passive aggressive kind of way to like, say, maybe be more professional. Yeah,

Betsy Jorgensen 16:04
yeah, it was like her talking about my hair. She didn’t like my hair naturally, wavy and down. And so she would make comments and tell me these stories about other women who started doing certain things, and they would get promoted, and that there’s so much that goes into getting promoted, it’s not about straightening your hair. Yeah. And just comments like that are bad. You know, there’s, there’s differences. And I’m sure everyone feels differences. And but those are some of the kind of

Phil Salter 16:31
Yeah, and obviously, I don’t want to like narrow you down to like, hey, you’re a woman who works. It’s like, You’re, you’re an awesome employee at a company, and you found opportunities to be in more and more managerial roles and have a team under you. And like, that’s got to be that might have been kind of scary at first. Like, if you ever thought like very scary, trust me to have people like to be under me. Yeah, yeah, it was like,

Betsy Jorgensen 16:52
not long after I joined workfront that I got a team, I suddenly had a person on my team that like you’re overloaded, and we have this person who we think could help you. And so they transfer somebody from another team to my team. And I was just like, oh, okay, so I’m like four years into my career. Now, I’m a people manager, I have no clue what to do with this person. Now, I manage Three, two people, and I work with contractors, which is a very new thing for me to support contractor as well, but definitely like a deer in the headlights moment, but also something okay, I’m just rewinding a little bit, thinking about experiences I’ve had. I know, I remember when we were at work front, we had like, not too long until I time at work front. They were doing like a pay parity exercise. And you know, like they’re analyzing people with similar skill sets in the same roles. looking at data, patron’s across gender,

Phil Salter 17:47
various companies or whatever,

Betsy Jorgensen 17:49
yeah. So like at work, when I remember, they had to do a ton of corrections for a bunch of women who were doing the same jobs as men at work for it. And whether it be through jet, I mean, I’m sure, I’m sure it was like, none of these were intentional decisions, or maybe people negotiated less than the offer process. I don’t know, I don’t know how it got to this point. But there are people with, you know, significant paid differences. And that’s the whole point of a pay parity exercise. And even Adobe does it annually to just say, hey, looking at gender, do we have people doing the same role? same responsibilities, but we’re seeing, are we seeing any patterns and women making less than men, and they do an annual correction? I don’t, it’s a very small amount of employees that get corrected as dummies, understanding, I’m new to the process. But you remember that for our first time, and that was eye opening to me that that really existed, that people were making, you know, whatever, some different than people doing the exact same job as them. So I think really cool that companies now are making a very more, much more intentional and transparent effort to make some of those corrections.

Phil Salter 18:54
Oh, for sure.

Betsy Jorgensen 18:55
But that’s Yeah, that was the first time I was like, Oh, that’s real. That’s, I hadn’t, I hadn’t really realized it for myself until I thought, you know, some of the data and, you know, but people heard the stories like, Oh, I got x increase, because I learned that my co workers making that much more than me, and it’s just like, that was kind of my first eye opening moment, just

Phil Salter 19:14
if you think about it that’s kind of, as far as I understand, like a newer thing to actually start considering these things. And this is been a thing, a potential problem for a long time. And it’s not just women, it’s minorities. It can be people with certain sorts of sexual orientations, whatever biases people have, even if it’s not intentional, even subconscious. You know, this whole idea of like, Oh, well, he’s, he’s got a family at home. So he needs more money. And this assumption, like, well, the wife, you know, she’s working really secondary. You know, it’s like that, which should not at all be a consideration for,

Betsy Jorgensen 19:50
like a super underlying current of thought, right? Um,

Phil Salter 19:54
I’ll be right up. Okay. Sorry, that’s my boy.

Betsy Jorgensen 20:00
You know, and against that. I mean, I, it’d be incredibly rare that that’s something I would ever be intentional, right? Like, also, hey, let’s say this person doesn’t negotiate, right? You’re like, Oh, I’m getting a candidate for $30k less than my budget. No complaints here, right? Like,

Phil Salter 20:16
yeah. And of course, you ask questions like, why isn’t someone feel empowered to negotiate? It could be from a systemic like, experience or whatever? Right? Yeah, for sure. Like I think. But what’s really awesome is in a world where sometimes it can be scary to admit you’ve made a mistake to correct things, because you could say, What if I just hope no one notices? Because sometimes saying, oops, look at this mistake I made could have its own repercussions. So to be able to say, let’s correct this is really a very awesome thing. Very cool. I think. So as as a manager, has there been things you’ve had to like learn financially speaking? Like, do you have budgets where you say, Hey, we have a team activity, or we have marketing or things you have to kind of do outward facing? Or maybe internally? budgets? I don’t know.

Betsy Jorgensen 21:02
Yeah, so my work is all internal employee facing communication. Yeah, I’ve it’s funny budgets in as a communications person are always tricky. So my budget is usually, you know, I pull from usually somebody else’s budget, but I do have, you know, line items that belong to me every year. So I’ve learned about negotiating on software contracts. So I remember when we brought on an internet vendor, which is, you know, the private, like Internet portal for your web, your employees, right. So we have a, we had an employee intranet, I was when my first jobs that worked for it was to, you know, build an employee intranet, and we remember negotiating with the vendor. And negotiating, my boss was helping me at the time. And negotiating is not really the right word, because I remember it was like, they gave us a number. And we’re like, cool, we just did it. Right. Like, I had never negotiated for software before I assumed my boss had done it a bunch, right. And I don’t know if he had either. And so then I remember a couple years later, we were like, you know, what, we actually maybe want to look at a different vendor, this one’s not meeting our needs. And I learned so much about how much you can move the dollar sign on, like a software contract negotiation. It was insane. I mean, we got I’m talking like went from like, $100k to $50k. Just with the right conversations,

Phil Salter 22:25
if you don’t know better, like, this is just what it is. Yeah, like you used to go to the store, you don’t go to Target and say, how about you give me this for half the price, that’s just not gonna happen. And then you, you know, you

Betsy Jorgensen 22:35
take it, it’s almost like, it’s like, almost like job offers, right? Where you like, you get an offer and take it back to your employer. Right. So for us, we got this offer, we took it back to our current vendor, they met it, but then we decided, we still wanted to switch. But we got this great price and kind of did some back and forth.

Phil Salter 22:50
Do you ever, like feel like a certain feeling? I don’t know if guilt or right skills like that? Cuz I do, because I would hate the idea of like, yeah, I’m leveraging this opportunity.

Betsy Jorgensen 22:58
That’s why the pecurment team is good at what they do. Your whole job is to be like, emotion, gone, pull it out of the equation, this is a business transaction. And we know you can go lower and the business is ultimately not going to offer you less than they could afford to make you know exactly what you do. So you only it’s only, it’s worth trying. So we saved a ton of money the second time around. And, again, that was another like, eye opening event related for me. And so I don’t have a ton of budget, like I was saying a few line items, internet was always one of my annual line items, I get small budget for, like team building, and, you know, that kind of stuff. So that was like, a big moment for me, and then even probably shouldn’t go into too much detail on this, but just looking at my employee salaries, right? And like, how can I advocate for them as their manager to get those to where I think those should be? Or you know, those are things I’ve had to do in the past and but there are lots of money lessons with that you don’t realize you’re going to get in your job outside of thinking about the money you take home.

Phil Salter 24:04
Like Yeah, for sure. And the higher you go, the more that comes into play, I’m sure

Betsy Jorgensen 24:08
Or even advocating for your own salary and even or even just kind of some of that corporate financial literacy, which I had never had before, but learning about pay bands. So like, for example, I’m like, I’m leveled at a certain level in my job at Adobe, and it was the same at work for it. And I think most big companies have paid them right. So it’s okay, Betsy is making X dollars. And she’s heard the range that she should make at this manager 30 level role, or whatever it is, right? is, you know, I’m gonna use like round numbers for simplicity. I’ll do so. Yeah. So let’s say the range could be from 1 million to $2 million. The midpoint, you know, is that $1.5 million, but he’s a little bit below median. So those pay ranges come into effect come into play too when you’re doing like annual conversations or even just an employee feeling of like empowered enough to say, Hey, can we talk more about my salary band and where I fit in that? Like, I feel like, I feel like that should be a conversation they should be allowed to have right? Like, hey, am I below the median in what people in my level are typically like getting? Right. So, you know, learning how to advocate for yourself financially, it comes down to just understanding a little bit how the backend works. And having sat in my, my communications role at workfront sat in a people department, and actually it does, again at Adobe. But it worked for me because it was so much smaller, my peers were head of compensation, head of HR. So I just got so much exposure to how do we manage pay conversations and annual merit increases? And how do we, you know, we’re using this contracted third party consulting firm who designs all of our pay bands, and just learning more about all of that was just, and it’s information I’m going to use? And are, you know, or have already started using to advocate for my employees that I manage? And for myself, even like, Hey, where do I sit in the pay band? And can we have a conversation about when they why I’m below the median? When I think I’m performing? You know, above average? And so there’s just a ton of that, that I’m

Phil Salter 26:11
getting it? Oh, sorry. Yeah, yeah. So it seems like kind of being able to, the more you understand the process, and it obviously will vary, but probably learn to understand the understanding what’s happening at the company right now. There may be variations that accompanies, but that’s going to kind of, it’s not going to be all together different. And understanding like, what comes at play, and like, what kind of Yeah, I’m centered and understanding what is my value

Betsy Jorgensen 26:35
can be hard. And when you’re getting a new job, too. So like I also head of recruiting at work from was one of my peers. So learning more about the recruiting process, and how much wiggle room they actually do have in the back end. And sometimes, you know, and just like anything, sometimes there’s more, sometimes there’s less, but you know, learning like, Okay, and so I actually had a job offer in the middle of all the integration, and I ended up ultimately turning it down. But it was for like, $15,000 more than I was making, and honestly, still am making. So you know, some days I’m like, you know, but then I remember, okay, it’s not just about the money. And that was the reason that would have been a good decision. But there are about 100 other reasons why staying where I was, and moving forward, the Adobe integration was a much, much better decision, right. But I use some of the skills that I, you know, knew in the back and I’m like, Okay, I know they have flexibility on this. So I’m going to go for that. And if I had never known that I wouldn’t have pushed for that. So I ended up getting an offer that was pretty good. They are still company that and have very forward thinking benefits, right? It was a very standard, you know, time off standard, you know, lots of things that at both Dolby and workfront, I was spoiled to have unlimited PTO and this and that, or you know, better maternity leave. And so, so many other factors that go into it. And that’s another thing too is salaried is not everything. Oh, for sure, in $15,000 more a year, but it would have reduced quality of life for me in a lot of other ways. But also

Phil Salter 28:05
financially speaking, like depending on the the actual benefits package, it’s really important to actually work the numbers like what is their 401k match and how much vacations actually given what does that actually worth in dollars? And oh, yeah, there’s other things like to contribute to my HSA. There’s like, or how much or how much and it’s just, you don’t always get this stuff up front, but like, how much does my premium actually cost? And that’s that you can’t ask for it front though, that people don’t often they’re like, yeah, like, you know, they may not just give it to you, but if you ask for it, yeah, what is the premiums? And like, what are the what what I’m looking for, like, the deductible and like, Well, yeah, so if I had a baby, oh, if I’m at Adobe, it cost me 2000 if I’m at this other place to be 8000 Okay, that’s important if I’m having a baby this next Yeah,

Betsy Jorgensen 28:48
that was part of what helped me make my decision on this company too is I was like, I need to see your benefits guide and they wouldn’t send me the benefits guide until they had their like and that’s when I knew I was like in a final two three candidate and some companies will send it to you at that point and some won’t they’re like we won’t send it to you unless we offer you and they offered me and I said okay, now I need to get your benefits guide and I just was looking through it and it was just very old school and I was used to very entrepreneurial startup be kind of more flexible, you know, work flexible PTO, or is this your button is in the seat from eight to five, get 10 days of PTO. After two years you’re going to be at 11 after four years you’ll be at 12 like I learned a lot of stuff that I was like that’s not worth the $15,000 annual yeah

Phil Salter 29:35
for sure. Even if like the money ends up being you end up ahead but yeah, that’s not the quality life you want. These are all things really anyone can learn Alright, is it to anybody as you’re looking for opportunities are to negotiate with Yeah, but sometimes

Betsy Jorgensen 29:50
you just don’t know what you don’t know. Right? So like, like pay bands that was a newer concept to me as a couple years ago and learning about when you when you get slotted into roll your seat Most companies, assuming they have some sort of process for this, but you’re sitting within it behave and like there’s a minimum and a maximum.

Phil Salter 30:07
Within like for your role? Yeah, okay.

Betsy Jorgensen 30:11
Well, my role was, excuse me. So let’s say my role the range was one to 2 million okay? Obviously not, let’s say I was sitting at to the conversation is then does she need to be leveled up? Like, because if let’s say I wanted more money, they’re like, okay, we actually hitting, we’re paying you, we’re paying you the max, we should pay for somebody at your level. So then then their question starts with your manager. Okay, how do I get to the next level? Right? And it’s not that you have to get to the max before you level up. But sometimes that is what forces that kind of,

Phil Salter 30:41
yeah, that’s a good point. Like, yeah, those are good conversations. And it’s important, like, a lot of us have, you know, reviews, either annually, or sometimes weekly, sometimes monthly, maybe quarterly with our management, talk about, like, where you’re at. And don’t be afraid to point out where you’ve grown, and actually talk about where you’re at before, so you can compare it, you know, and it’s okay to like, not really brag, but you know, you want to show all the things you’ve done, and then come up with a plan with your manager of like, what do I want to become and bragging about yourself is a it’s something that we’re taught our whole lives not really to do,

Betsy Jorgensen 31:13
right? It’s like, your vein, that’s, you know, you’re just taught your whole life subconsciously, sometimes more directly, not to be brag, you know. But it’s actually a critical skill. When you’re, when you’re in your career, it is to brag on yourself, and obviously, in the right time in the right place, and in the right way. It’s a skill that I struggle with.

Phil Salter 31:38
Big, I agree, like, it’s so much easier for me to, like, be self deprecating, and point out, like, where I screw up. Yeah. And then just assume someone’s gonna be like, no, yeah, exactly. And in some ways, it’s a way to like to ask for validation, which I really try not to do that as much as I used to. But what I was gonna say, though, is go to your manager and find out is there like a formal, like definition of these different levels? And like, I’ve learned, like, Okay, I’m a software engineer, okay. There’s a junior, there’s like, a mid, there’s a senior, there’s a team lead, there’s like management, you know, there’s different levels. It’s like, what is the definition of being a senior? And what are where are some places that you see, oh, if you level this up here in your skill set, you then could be qualified, as defined as this senior role,

Betsy Jorgensen 32:21
and actually, is something exactly like that, that recently was able to get my one of my employees leveled up, because I was able to point to the language they created and say, she’s doing all those things.

Phil Salter 32:31
Oh, she was already there. You could Converse, you could have said, hey, look, here, this is what you need. You know, like, if you’re not there yet, it’s like having a specific goal to work towards is so key. You know,

Betsy Jorgensen 32:41
a lot of this is just stuff that it took me a few years to learn. But if somebody at the outset of the career was like candid, like, Alright, let’s do a little deep dive into pay bands, let’s do a deep dive into exactly what you said, like, what are love? what’s, what is leveling? And how do they define the levels? And where do you sit? And what skills do you need to get? Like, what is such a much clearer roadmap than just like, hoping that you’re doing the stuff that’s going to move you to the next level? Yeah, getting like, Hey, no, I’m mapping to this. And this is the company’s definition. So let’s have a conversation about why I’m not at this level for Yeah,

Phil Salter 33:14
and we should get there. Yeah, we should treat our careers just like we treat, like if you let’s say you want to have goals with like, you’re investing or creating a business, it’s like, let’s take these seriously. And even if it doesn’t lead to a staying at that company, or maybe it leads us to skills that we go build our own company, whatever. But we should always take these things seriously, with goals in mind, because like, Why spend, like such a huge part of your life, you know, doing something, if you’re not doing it as productive and effectively as possible. Yep. Right. Because it’s time away from our family. It’s gonna affect what we can do with our families if we can make more money, and things like that. So yeah, it’s really awesome. I really appreciate the time you’ve taken it’s really cool. Like, I was telling you before, like, I don’t know where these conversations will go, I have an idea what I want to talk about, like this has been really

Betsy Jorgensen 34:02
reminding me that my sister who’s more junior in her kind of career, yeah, and honestly, us. I mean, I haven’t not sure I’ve talked to her much about all these different things that she could be using to advocate for herself. So it’s kind of fun to think, okay, now I need to go talk the talk and share this information with my sister and you know, the people in my life that could benefit from

Phil Salter 34:23
this what you do Betsy, you go, you say okay, here’s the podcast, you need to subscribe to scribe go to YouTube and subscribe to the YouTube channel. You gotta

Betsy Jorgensen 34:32
There you go.

Phil Salter 34:33
There’s a button on the anchor.fm site. anchor.fm/NoBetterTime that you could even like support financially, this podcast. I mean, come on people. Let’s do this.

Betsy Jorgensen 34:43
One thing that this is gonna say for me too, is sometimes other people make us feel guilty about wanting more money. So like, my sister just just got like an internal move and her company. I’m so excited perks that came with a $10,000 raise a role that she’s living But more excited about. But even just that $10,000 raise, I remember I was telling my mom, it’s so great Stephanie’s got this new job. And she was able to, she applied for this internal role. And Funny enough, she’s going to be doing internal communications like me, so

Phil Salter 35:15
Oh, that’s nice. She’s got a mentor.

Betsy Jorgensen 35:17
Um, so she moved to this internal communications router company. That’s kind of a new role. Oh, yeah. $10,000 raise. And I remember, they actually came back to her and it was about a $6,000. Like, the offer was for about $6,000 more than she made, but they made the mistake of telling her that their budget was, you know, x sell me that. And I was like, No, no, no, no. They told you the budgets this, they like you obviously, if they offered you the job, you already have some internal street cred, right? So, you know, I was telling him I was like, Oh, yeah, so I told Stephanie to, to tell them that she wanted this much. My mom was like, Oh my gosh, like she like she shook her head and was like, it was like, she thought it was like this greedy, like,

Phil Salter 36:00
was this before she was successful? Or was it like,

Betsy Jorgensen 36:04
this was I was telling her the story.

Phil Salter 36:07
So but I would say I could see like that fear of like, Oh, no, you’ve maybe screwed it up. You know, sometimes, like if I asked for this, there’s you say

Betsy Jorgensen 36:16
that and that’s all for to like from from our parents. And more conservative like, you just take what you’re offered, you take what you’re given.

Phil Salter 36:24
Like it was a healing of undergrad un-gratitude.

Betsy Jorgensen 36:27
Yeah. But she she said, Hey, can I have this instead? It was for like $4,000 more than they offered. And still $5,000 less than they had said the range included, which is smart budget, so $10,000 increase for her overall. And it took them like an hour to just get her new offer. like yeah, of course, it took it was an hour, she asked us a brave and asked one question. And her salary increased by $4,000 per year,

Phil Salter 36:54
per year. Exactly. Even if it was a one time $4,000 thing, but yeah, per year, every year, and then her next job builds off of the salary of this job. That’s that small conversation she had just anyways. Yeah, there’s a lot of different things. Three, and you start to realize like any amount of money you get more like just kind of compounds because it like you make more but then the next job and it gives you more power to say, No, I don’t want that opportunity. Because you don’t think I’m worth this much more like I’m happy. Like if you want me you’re gonna have to pay me maybe 30,000 more Who knows? You know, like whatever. So awesome. But let’s get Betsy thanks so much for your time and for your input. If anybody has questions that I could redirect to Betsy are in general about finances are kind of going up the corporate ladder and managing people you can email at no better email me at No Better Time. podcast@gmail.com I can forward those on to Betsy and see what she has to say. do my best to answer them myself. Also, if you have topics suggestion, things you’d like to hear about, I’d love to hear that too. Have a great day and thanks so much. And don’t be afraid to recognize your greatness and pointed out to

Betsy Jorgensen 38:07
Ask for that money

Phil Salter 38:08
and ask for that money!

Betsy Jorgensen 38:09
worse that happens as they say no.

Phil Salter 38:11
All right, bye

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

37: The Power of Awareness – Todd Bauerle


Today I talk to Todd Bauerle (a returning guest!) about the power of awareness. No matter where we are in life, we always have room for more growth. Being aware of what we really want – truly getting to the core of it required awareness to cut through the white noise and distractions and doubts. If we want something we need to manifest it first in our minds.

Todd has a FREE 5-day masterclass that from July 26th – 30th 2021 called “the Secret to Abundant Living”, and he wants you to join him! You can learn more and register by going to bauerleconsulting.mykajabi.com/the-secret-to-abundant-living right now! I know you will enjoy this one!

Click this link to support the Podcast! https://anchor.fm/nobettertime/support

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Phil Salter 0:00
Todd, this is your second time here during this podcast.

Todd Bauerle 0:03
Yeah, for sure.

Phil Salter 0:04
And as you recall, last time we just chatted we Yeah, we chatted about what did we talk about last time?

Todd Bauerle 0:11
I think we just talked about, like getting started and going after your dream, like we just kind of had a conversation about like, what are the factors that bring you to change?

Phil Salter 0:20
Yeah, that’s right. And cow Change is hard. And we can wait until it’s painful enough that we have no choice but to change, right? Or we can, you know, get on it and proactively change. And I don’t, I mean, I think ideally, we will change before it gets too painful. But all that matters is that we react and change eventually.

Todd Bauerle 0:42
That’s the whole point of everything right is to grow, is to become more than we are currently.

Phil Salter 0:47
Yeah. And if we’ve changed, and we’ve grown, then we can feel good about that. We don’t have to think man, why did it take so long? Who cares? Man, there’s no set schedule for anybody, right? We all own our own path.

Todd Bauerle 0:56
Well, that’s the other thing is when you finally get to where you want to be, then everything that’s in the past or anything that’s like a bump in the road that leads you to a point where you felt frustrated in the past or you felt stuck, like all of that makes sense. And it’s all okay, because where you’re at is, is amazing. And so there’s there’s a lot of grace that you like, retro actively extend yourself.

Phil Salter 1:19
Yes, I like that. Let’s talk about really quick where you’re at. So beautiful.

Todd Bauerle 1:24
Yeah, I’m in northern Michigan, it’s it’s a slightly hazy overcast day. Otherwise, the lake would be super blue and, and amazing. So it’s just a little gray. So I’m in northern Michigan, this is this is part of my goal, life and dream. That’s It’s a family property. My I was fortunate enough to have great grandparents that bought a bunch of property in this little town called Glen Arbor, Michigan, and built cottages for all of their kids, they had four kids. And then some of them had more, more family and bought more property. And so there’s been this string of property up here that I came through as a kid. And it was the best time of my life. And so when I was at a point of reinventing myself and say, Okay, what do I really want, if I can, if I can be do or have whatever I want, what do I want. And what I wanted was the feeling of a kid, the limitless feeling of being a kid, and I could do whatever I want. I could, you know, sleep all day, or get up early and read a book and I could go swimming, I could play in the woods, like this was the place that felt like the most abundant to me, I didn’t realize it at the time, it was a place that was most abundant. So my biggest goal was I wanted to spend every summer back here, not just for me, but I’ve got three boys, my oldest is 12, my youngest is nine.And I wanted to give them the summers that I had growing up. And so this was 2016 when I set that goal, so every summer, I come back here all summer long. And I have since 2017, I’ll be back here like eight or nine weeks this year, it was 10 weeks last year.But it was only like, maybe five the year before that. And so it’s just a continual expression of like, how I want to live my life. So

Phil Salter 3:14
awesome. I love it. I remember when you did this the first time. Yes, I remember. You’re like I’m going to Michigan for a period of time. And, and I was like, I guess so we’re like, we got to get a couple movies in because we do movie nights before you go. And are you saying I want to be able to do this longer and longer each year? And it’s really cool to see this. Come to reality for you. Yeah. So you went through a long period of time like as a child, this was like your special place. Anyone years without going to the to this?

Todd Bauerle 3:42
Yeah. Yeah. So I I was born in Michigan, but we moved to Arizona and like 20, excuse me in 1982. And so we would come back every year. For a while. As a child. My mom was a school teacher. And she would come back for the whole summer. And we’d visit family downstate, and we’d spend three, four. I think the longest we ever spent up here was six weeks one summer. My dad only had a two week vacation. So when he came back, he be here for a couple days. And then we go downstate, and visit family. My parents divorced in 92. And it became less and less frequent. The next longest summer that I was back here was probably about six weeks when I was 16. I worked at the grocery store and that was kind of a miserable time in my life. I mean, like all 16 year olds, right, but I was doing that job instead of hanging out on the beach. And then when I you know grew up and got older, and I’m a poor college kid, like I can’t afford to fly out here. I got a job where I’ve only got so many weeks of vacation. And so when I look back at my life, like my kids had only been here twice. We came up in 2011 with my youngest son No, it was it was 2010 excuse me, my youngest son was born in 2008. So he was here a year old, my second son wasn’t even born. And then my kids were born in 2010, and 2012, respectively. So we came up again. 2014. So all three of my kids had only been up here one time, by the time I set this goal, and now they’re up here every year. So did you find yourself trying to get back to a certain place? It sounds like where you’re like, I want to feel that that freedom and that, yeah, that lightness that I felt when I was a child. Yeah, it’s more chasing a feeling right? Everything in life is based on feeling whether you realize it or not. And most people are trying to escape the feeling of being trapped, lost, stuck, frustrated, angry, powerless, unfulfilled, unsatisfied, victimized, whatever it is, we have the negative feelings in life that we’re just trying to escape. And so for me, it was just thinking about this was freeing. So get factional place,

Phil Salter 6:04
you’re focusing on feeling it with yourself with a positive feeling and experience, rather than saying, I don’t want to feel bad. It’s like, Oh, this will make me feel good. Yeah. And this will make me feel free. And and there’s not space for the negativity, it’s a different way to look at it a different approach, I think, then focus on what we don’t want, you found a way to get what you wanted. And what you needed.

Todd Bauerle 6:24
Yeah. Well, that’s, I mean, you’re either motivated by pain or pleasure, which is what we talked about last time. And so this was for, I didn’t know the word but the word was abundance. The word was abundant. I wanted to have that abundant life, abundant and time abundant in in wealth, abundant in joy and love and abundance in all things. Right. And so this was the place that came to mind. Wow, do you find it hard when you first get there each year that to kind of, to slow down and enjoy it, you have to like do a transition because you’re like, sometimes get to that place where you can kind of release? Yeah, so like, I started my own business in 2017. And I worked a lot that summer up here, I was on the screened in porch back here. And at 2017. You know, I, it was more vacation, because I had two weeks, two and a half weeks up here. But I did a lot of stuff. 20 2018 I worked a lot 2019 I worked a lot. Last year, I spent more time doing what I was what I wanted. And that was the first time in a 30 day period, I earned my annual income in a month, my old annual income that $35,000 in a month. And this this year, you know, my business has succeeded to a point where I really took vacation, like I came up here and I’m like, I’m gonna work as little as possible. And so I almost felt like work is more of a chore. But I’ve also, I’ve also dramatically multiplied my income so that I can do that I could take that time off, and I but I feel a little bit guilty, like I shouldn’t be doing something more, I should be doing something more. So I

Phil Salter 8:04
totally, I mean, I just came back last week, I did like a reunion up down in St. George, it was even for a full week. But I decided I didn’t even release any podcast episodes last week. Not that anybody noticed, you know, but I was just like, you know, I was at this point, like, I maybe I’ll edit, have these interviews I’ve done and I need to edit them. And I’m like, had this kind of back in my mind plan. But I was like, You know what, I’m just gonna, like, let things go. And it’s gonna be okay, and just enjoy myself. And that was hard, you know, because I kept thinking of things I could be doing. And it’s hard to release. It’s not that it’s bad to be productive. But it’s also really good to just enjoy your life and experience the moment

Todd Bauerle 8:39
to be present. Right. That’s what I’m trying to do. Like, you probably noticed, I haven’t posted any pictures on Facebook at all this entire trip. And I didn’t, I didn’t intentionally do it. But now I feel like because I love looking at the Facebook memories and go I remember that in this year. And I remember this and that year. And I’m not going to have that for this year, just because I didn’t I’d rather be present. I’ve taken some pictures but not a ton. I’m, I’m more enjoying the moment than feeling like I’ve got to document it for something or share it with somebody like I’ve just, it’s just different this year for me.

Phil Salter 9:13
That’s so interesting, because it’s true. Like sometimes I want to like document a really amazing moment because I’m like, Oh, dang, like this has to add to share this, or I want to remember this, but it’s like, yeah, just experience it. You know, it almost seems like it has more value. If you really experience it. You’re distracting yourself from the actual experience. When you’re busy thinking about how cool be for people to see this or know that experiences or whatever. Very cool. So I’ve ever kind of end of our previous conversation. We’re talking about this idea of like, kind of the positivity put out there and kind of how do we like manifest this kind of stuff? Yeah. And I look at you and you have a very unique opportunity. Not everyone necessarily has a family property on Lake Michigan. They can go to four weeks doesn’t mean they couldn’t find a way to get that if that was like their most important thing right. If that was they could do it,

Todd Bauerle 10:01

Phil Salter 10:01
But everyone needs to obviously determine like, what is the thing that they’re they want to search for or strive for. In fact, they just started this book called “The One Thing” just last night. In fact, I don’t know. “The One Thing” and I’ve only read like the first three chapters, but I’m like, Dude, this is gonna be really good. It’s Gary Keller and Jay Papasan. Like a Papason chair. I think it’s patent babies. pap is on P A P A S A N. But I’m really cool. Because all ideas like, we think we have to focus on all these different things, but really always comes down to if we can focus on one most important thing. Yeah. That’s will give us success. And all these other places. And one of the examples I gave that really resonated with me was you look at Star Wars, right? Star Wars The first six movies, I know you’re like this, this is example they gave it I’m gonna maybe butcher the example. But the idea right? For the first six movies that say a made like $30 billion, or something, I don’t know. Let’s just say that’s what it was. And so what would you say? was the one thing that made Star Wars successful? Was it the movies, or was it the merchandise?

Todd Bauerle 11:08
Uh, well, so the merchandise took off and had a life of its own. But for me, I think it’s I think it’s the emotional impact that people left the theater with, right?

Phil Salter 11:21
Yeah. Even though they said maybe it was like $90 billion the products made the merchandise, but the movies made like maybe a third of a quarter of it.

Todd Bauerle 11:29

Phil Salter 11:29
He’s like, still, the one thing was the movies because other movies, no one cares about this merchandise, right?

Todd Bauerle 11:34
Well, but also also like, cuz I’ve been the Star Wars geek that I am. Every single time I’ve seen the original Star Wars in the movie theater, like everyone applauds, like loses their mind when the death star explodes, right? So the only reason that the merchandise or the soundtrack By the way, the soundtrack made a ton of money compared to other film scores from 1977. They they wanted a piece of that they want to take a piece of that feeling home with them, right. So you buy your little Luke Skywalker and x wing action figure and you play the soundtrack to it. And you read the book and you read the comics. And it feels like you’re in the theater when the desktop explodes. And everybody applauds.

Phil Salter 12:12
Hmm. So yeah, this is emotional impact this thing did. And so the, the one thing that makes this so successful is that emotion, they’re able to bring in the people, right? And everything around that, like how do we get that emotion in whoever This was intentional or not? Right. But that’s what it comes down to. That’s what makes it effective. And they were like, what are the things we could do to create that emotion? They did it right. Yeah. Successful? Yeah. So we look at our lives and we say like, what is the thing we need to focus on that can be hard to isolate down to the one thing but like you said, maybe for you, would you say the one thing for you was I want to be free enough to go to Michigan every summer? Was that kind of a big motivating factor? Was that the one thing for you?

Todd Bauerle 12:48
That was the one thing for me, it was that mattered more than the moneymore than the money goal? Because I had on my gold card. I’m I’m so happy and grateful now that I earn $100,000 over $100,000 a year. Actually, I didn’t even think I said that. I think I said six figures. I’m so happy and grateful now that I have earned six figures. It’s been long summers at the cottage, Michigan, like I put the money in there to please my coach at the time.And I wanted to have an income goal. And that was like triple my income. And but it was this, this is more than anything what I wanted

Phil Salter 13:22
say like, if you would go back, you’d say actually, you maybe put that goal because you thought that’s what would look good. Or that person might want you to put or you don’t know, maybe but you’re saying really the most accurate thing would have been spend my summers and I’d like Michigan?

Todd Bauerle 13:35
Yeah. That’s it

Phil Salter 13:37
okay. So how does someone do this? Like? How does someone like a guest decide what’s going to motivate them? And how do they manifest these big goals in their lives to make their life better and more meaningful?

Todd Bauerle 13:49
So that’s, I mean, we could talk for hours about that. Yeah, cuz that’s an answer. That’s a process. Um, so So, you know, I think it comes down to to being honest with yourself, you’ve got to be honest, first and foremost. Most people are not honest. With themselves. Most people are extremely dishonest with themselves. They don’t want to admit what they want. They don’t want to admit how they do feel. They don’t want to admit really any responsibility for their lives. And so it comes down to being honest. Are you 100% happy with where you’re at? 99% of the people are gonna say no. Okay, then what would you love to have happened to you this year that you’re not expecting? I think that’s the one question that you can ask yourself, like, what would you love to have happen? And, and it’s that question is phrased in a way that allows people to just kind of wonder and play with that. I Oh, I’d love to win, you know, 150,000 $150 million in the Powerball. Well, why? What would you do with it? How would that change you? How would that change your life? What’s the first thing you would go buy, I guarantee you, if you if you had if you if you won the Powerball The first thing you’re not, you are not going to go pay off all of your bills like screw that that can wait for next month. Like what are you going to? Do? You got to take your family on a trip to Disneyland? Are you gonna quit your job? Because you freakin hate it so much. Like, what’s the thing that you’re going to do? What would you love to have happen to you? And if it’s if it’s money, why? If it’s a relationship, why, if it’s like, yeah, and play with that idea, that’s how I

Phil Salter 15:37
try to put yourself in that, that mindset, which is hard, like you said, like to be really honest. And it’s hard to maybe, like, try to really imagine having that much money, right? Like, what would you actually do? And just be honest, and you’re right, like, it would probably be like, let’s go somewhere really amazing, you’ll do something so I can go pay off my bills, and it’s not just all sudden having all this money. “Oh, I’m happy now”. You know, money’s not happiness.

Todd Bauerle 15:59
No, cuz you’re gonna wait, you guys. What’s funny, like, you’re gonna, you’re gonna, you’re gonna get that check, you’re in cash it, you’re gonna have $150 million in the bank, and you’re gonna, like, pardon me for being crass. But you’re gonna wake up the next morning, and go to the bathroom and take a crop in the exact same way you always have for the rest of your life. Yes, right, you’re gonna have to, you’re gonna have to eat food, you’re gonna have to, you know, make your bed. Now, you can even hire someone to make your bed. But you’re you are fundamentally going to be the exact same person. And so when you start looking at, what do you want, what was what’s the one thing that you would love to have happened to you that you’re not expecting this year? I’d love to find I want to find love. I want to find a fulfilling career. I want to see my kids succeed, I want to have a lot of money, I want to buy a sports car, have a dream home, I want to take a dream vacation. Why do you want that thing, you want that thing because it acts it, it’s the expression of a feeling or emotion that’s polar opposite to what you’re feeling? Hmm. So I want the money because I’m tired of struggling financially, I want to quit my job because I hate working here. Because I hate how my boss makes me feel. I want a relationship because I’m lonely. Right? What we want is the polar opposite to where we’re at. And this is where people don’t want to be honest, and look into that feeling of loneliness. That’s what needs to be addressed. The feeling of lack, financially or emotionally, or the stress of a job, that’s where your work is, you have to resolve that feeling if you’re ever going to manifest anything bigger, better beyond where you’re at.

Phil Salter 17:39
So I guess if I’m following, it seems like the power is determining what that thing is, and really why you want it. Because you might think I want a sports car. But it’s like, really what I want to do is feel free to hit the road and just go into where I want or you know, whatever, what really is the thing? And it’s like, you don’t necessarily Are you really don’t need $150 million to get that reality.

Todd Bauerle 17:59

Phil Salter 18:00
If you’re like, you know, what, if I had $150 million, I would just drop everything and go to Disneyland, like you said, rather than worse away, I could do that sooner than later, instead of waiting till I have $150 million, is that kind of what you’re getting a little bit is like well, determining and like taking steps or

Todd Bauerle 18:15
Yes, but what I’m saying is the feeling of where you’re at, and where you’re stuck right now in life is the problem. You feel lack, you feel anger, you feel powerless, you need to resolve that feeling. Right? to manifest what it is that you want, you have to feel like it’s already happened. neville goddard writes about this. He’s a he, he does a lot of spiritual mindset, law of attraction kind of writing, but from, like, 60 years ago, plus. So in his book, The Power of awareness, he talks about the feeling of the wish fulfilled, what you need to possess is not the thing, the feeling of the wish fulfilled. So if you want a relationship, because you’re so lonely, you need to not feel lonely, for that relationship to show up.

Phil Salter 19:08
Oh, so you’re saying you need to, like, start manifesting that emotional state. It’s like, emotionally dressed for the job you want kind of thing like you want to be in that place.

Todd Bauerle 19:19
That’s exactly right. Because once you feel that way, things start happening. Right, like, let’s go, let’s go back to a conversation that we had. I think I think this was maybe go into driving up to the funeral for Andy and Kevin, and you and I were in the car. And I was like, you were in between jobs at that point, I think and I’m like, Dude, why don’t you just do your photography business full time. The feeling that you had is I can’t do that.Right? Because I feel like maybe I get burned out or maybe I couldn’t rely on myself or I need to have this outside security in a job right? That so you couldn’t imagine doing That thing because of how you felt, however, the and I was like, yeah, go buy a drone, because you need like, man that’s expensive, and who’s gonna want drone photography and blah, blah, blah, this and that and the other, right? Like all of those kind of lack ideas. But once you felt like, you know what, maybe I could do more of this, maybe this is a great thing. Maybe I could get a drone. Maybe once you felt that way, guess what happened? You got the drone, your business grew, right, you’re making the podcast, you have to feel that way first, for those things to start manifesting?

Phil Salter 20:28
Well, it’s funny, because I remember that conversation now. And I remember I’ve had this kind of thought before, because it’s like, it isn’t just because I have a side business doesn’t mean it has to become my full time thing if I don’t want it to be. But the question is, do I really not want it to be or am I just scared that it It can’t be? And that’s the thing I was remember that conversation was like, I don’t even know whether or not I want this. I just think I’m too scared about if it’s even possible. And that’s like, was totally in the way of me deciding what I even want it you don’t I mean,

Todd Bauerle 20:54
and that’s an uncomfortable examination. Right? Most people don’t want to sit down and lean into that. This is where that term lean in that Bernie brown talks about lean into the discomfort? Well, you have to lean into Well, why do you feel like you can’t do that? Why are you afraid to question it?

Phil Salter 21:12
It’s so hard to have those honest in dialogues. And when people pointed out to you, because remember, I’ve had conversations with you, where you really asked me some very direct questions. We’re just kind of casually hanging out for Kevin a show before watching a movie. And I’m like, I don’t like the way I feel right now. And I’m like, I’m not like mad at you or anything, but I’m just like, I don’t like that. I don’t like this, you know, but it’s like, and I’m thinking there’s something wrong, but it’s really it’s like, No, man, I’m just having to really get inside my head in my heart a little bit. And that can be really uncomfortable. And, and, and many times people, I just push that away and say I don’t want to go there anymore. Like I don’t like that place. But it’s so necessary, right? You got to traverse those paths, I guess

Todd Bauerle 21:47
you have to the conflict inside is something to be resolved. If you’re if you’re going to get to where you’re at. That’s where the work is. Most people like when because I coach people in law of attraction and abundance and things like that, when you know, our first conversations are always about what is it that you want?What does that look like? If we’re together, and I’m gonna help you get whatever you want? What does that look like? What’s the destination look like? And then why are you not there?And we have some surface level discussions of it. But if I had in that conversation told them, Hey, you got to stare down all of your demons in the face to get what you want. Most people be like, Yeah, no, I’m good in the comfort zone. I’m good. I’m good. Remaining ignorant.

Phil Salter 22:32
Yes. And so and in your way, you kind of say this, like, very broadly, earlier in this conversation, you’re saying like, people like you’re, you’re afraid you’re not happy? It’s like, I mean, is that generally true about people? Would you say I mean, obviously, your persona? Like, would you say even you like you’ve made these steps? Would you say even now that’s true for you?

Todd Bauerle 22:49

Phil Salter 22:51
Okay, like, How come?

Todd Bauerle 22:53
Well, because, you know, there’s, I’m still competing with inner shadows and demons inside of me, the biggest problem that we have is comparing ourselves to other people. And that’s actually not even comparing ourselves to other people. It’s an imagined comparison. Like, I think that this person must be so much better than me because of what results that they have. And so we kind of like diminish ourselves and elevate ourselves, or elevate other people in that comparison. And we try to judge ourselves by our perception of another person. And that creates an inferiority complex, most people feel inferior to somebody else. And and if they don’t, they’re lying to themselves, because everybody has some insecurity. And so what do they try to do? They try and compensate, and try and be more superior than other people. This is the whole like, you know, the the most weak willed weak minded guys go out and buy the super muscle cars, right to cover that ineptitude. Right. So there’s always we’re always compensating based on our perception of other people. And so we always feel that way. And I feel that way, too. I have that same challenge sometimes,

Phil Salter 24:03
but you’re, you’re happier than you were I imagined, like, there’s still a reason to do this, right?

Todd Bauerle 24:07

Phil Salter 24:08
Gaining more levels of clarity and self awareness and happiness. And meeting goals. Like whether it be physical or emotional, you know, I mean, like, there’s a reason to still do this as I do. Because when you’re saying this, I’m like, dang, you’re always gonna be like this. It’s like, no, but like, on some level, right? We’re always

Todd Bauerle 24:27
Otherwise your not grown,

Phil Salter 24:29
I was about to say, what’s more depressing than being like, Oh, cool. I don’t have to do anything ever again. I can just sit here and I’ve arrived. No, we’ve never fully arrived. That’d be that’d be the worst part ever. Having been able to grow

Todd Bauerle 24:40
because whatever success whatever happens in life to bring you the success of where you’re at is not the same things. It’s going to help keep you there. Right. So as soon as you start arriving, you start sliding backwards. Right. So I’ve experienced that, you know, I’ve I’ve had crazy success in the last even Six months. I mean, this year I, like, I don’t want to flex but I feel like sharing some concrete realities with people helps them understand like, so I’ve earned a quarter million dollars this year. So far, that’s a far cry from $35,000 a year. And once I hit that, and I hit a certain status, I coach for a guy named Bob Proctor, who is just one of the best human potential teachers, one of the best prosperity teachers in the world. I’m I’m one of his top coaches. In fact, I’m probably one of five coaches in the United States that has this level of success with him. And once I hit that level, like I said, I didn’t have the next goal in mind, and I started backsliding, right? There’s there’s a, there’s a burden that you carry, once you realize that you can be 100% responsible for your life and you can create whatever you want is that now you know that when your mindset isn’t right, that you’re screwing it all up,

Phil Salter 25:57
you’re doing it yourself,

Todd Bauerle 25:58
but you’re doing it to yourself. And so the whole reason to set the next goal and to grow isn’t because I need need more money. But there’s, there’s things and experiences that I want that I know I can have. And if you know that you can do it, then you’re compelled to follow through with it. Because otherwise, what’s the whole point?

Phil Salter 26:17
So you’ve you’ve taken the whatever pill that takes you out of the matrix, you can’t go back like,

Todd Bauerle 26:23
yeah, you can go

Phil Salter 26:24
too much you’re aware of what’s happening. I think that’s the name of this part of this episode is “The Power of Awareness”. That’s what I’ve decided. Because that’s where it’s at, man.

Todd Bauerle 26:31
It is, it is. And everything is about awareness. And most people who are honest, are just content to like, put their heads in the sand and continue to be unaware. And that lack of awareness is where the powerless victim frustration mentality comes in, which is where 99% of people live.

Phil Salter 26:53
Yeah, I mean, honestly, on some level, you know, I’ve been there and I’m trying to, I’m still there, obviously, we all are, like he said, we’re all working through things, little by little, but

Todd Bauerle 27:02
And doing our best.

Phil Salter 27:03
But for me, for me right now, the thing that hit me was this podcast, for me is the “one thing” because what this podcast has done is pushed me to learn new things, think differently. It’s made me do better at work. Because now I like think how can I make the most of where I stand here at work, maybe I don’t do this forever. But if I’m going to be here, I’m going to do it all do it the best I can. I’ve already had opportunities to be presented to me to potentially be have more leadership opportunities with where it currently works. That’s what I want. My business, my side business, I’ve already been able to make it more passive, because to me, that’s what I’m pushing for is more passive income. I’m already like, I have someone who I’m training to become a photographer so that I don’t have to do all the photoshoots anymore. I you know, all these things. And it’s like, wow, these are the things because of this podcast. For me though. It’s not the only thing, but it’s the most important thing I think I’m doing right now,

Todd Bauerle 27:53
It’s growth. It’s growth.

Phil Salter 27:55

Todd Bauerle 27:56
And and growth. So by law needs to be expressed globally, your if you’re growing inside, by law, it’s going to show up in your outside results. It has to that’s part of natural law of correspondence as within. So without, right, so you’re going to grow within, you have to manifest growth opportunities outside of you. And most people are not growing, they’re not most people are looking for someone outside of themselves to do the growth. So they, their boss needs to come up with their professional development plan or their teacher, you know, or, or, or friends or family that they’re in, you know, because as kids, we were relying upon our parents to help us grow, but at some point, we need to take responsibility for that growth, and start doing it ourselves. And

Phil Salter 28:41
yeah, like if we just wait for Oh, go ahead. Sorry,

Todd Bauerle 28:44
no, and most people aren’t ready to do that.

Phil Salter 28:46
Yeah if we wait for like our manager or supervisor to tell us this is what you need to do to get to the next level. It’s like no, you know what I mean?

Todd Bauerle 28:52
Your manager or supervisor who’s probably not growing themselves.

Phil Salter 28:56
Yeah, I mean, even if they are like, everyone’s responsible for that for themselves, you know. And so that’s the thing that I’m realizing as people listen is that’s why this is such so relevant, because my podcast is about learning about investing in building wealth, increasing your passive income. Like, why are we going to do this? Like what is the motivation is because that’s where you need to determine if you’re listening to this and you’re saying, I want to have an awesome retirement or I want wealth. Right now let’s is that what I want? I’m realizing it went from me saying, I want to have a great retirement like, No, I don’t wanna wait till then. I want to have wealth now. And abundance now. Ask yourself these questions. This is gonna be hard, but like, ask yourself, What am I Why am I doing this? What am I trying to achieve? And put yourself in that mental place now and start growing and then like you said, it will, growth will happen externally. It has to happens internally, it has to right it’s like a law of the universe or something.

Todd Bauerle 29:46
It is, it is it’s one of the laws of the universe. Right? That’s our our environment is a reflection of what’s going on inside with us period. And so if if if if you are stuck in If you are frustrated out within the without an your outside reality, you’re going to be confronted by all of those things that continue to make you feel that way. So you got to change it from within first, which is where we we say, What do you want? Why that thing is a is an expression or manifestation of the opposite feeling and experience that you feel right now. So therefore, you’ve got to work on that inside feeling

Phil Salter 30:27
to change that feeling inside.

Todd Bauerle 30:29
And there’s a whole lot more that goes into it. But

Phil Salter 30:31
Oh, sure, but I mean, these are, this is

Todd Bauerle 30:32
We’ll aparantly do a series of this.

Phil Salter 30:36
I’m up for it, man. And I’ll just say, if people wanted to learn more about you, and even reach out to you, potentially because you coach people, and you help people with these things.

Todd Bauerle 30:47
So actually, you know, the best place to follow me and see what I do is on Tick Tock at @ToddLBauerle, is my handle at TikTok, which I’m sure you can put in the show notes or something. Last name, ba u e r l e. So follow me there. But actually, I’ve got a free workshop coming up in like about a week here. So

Phil Salter 31:08

Todd Bauerle 31:09
Yeah. So jumping

Phil Salter 31:10
Can I get the link to that or something?

Todd Bauerle 31:12
Yeah, I’ll send you the registration link is July, July 26th through the 30th. And I’ll have some more content that will go through that weekend. So that’s Monday, the 26th of July through the 30th of July is when I’ll be doing t

Phil Salter 31:28
26th Or 22nd?

Todd Bauerle 31:32
26th. It’s another week away.

Phil Salter 31:34
Okay, 26th through 30th.

Todd Bauerle 31:38
Yeah, and it’s gonna be at at at noon Eastern time. I’ll be here on the deck. If the weather’s good doing teaching, it’s called this the secret to a button to the What am I calling it the secret to abundant living

Phil Salter 31:54
To abundant living. Well, I’m going to have this episode released on Wednesday of this week.

Todd Bauerle 32:02
Rad and plenty of time for people

Phil Salter 32:04
before this happens. For anyone who hears this build, you have an opportunity to do this free like virtual kind of remote workshop thing they can join live it sounds like

Todd Bauerle 32:14
yeah, you can join live, it’s going to be streamed on TikTok, I’m going to stream it on Facebook as well. In a closed Facebook group, I’ll put up I’ll put up links on YouTube for the sessions. Once they’re recorded and done. I’m gonna try and figure out a way that I can stream live to YouTube as well. So we’ll have a couple of options for people to be watching. There’ll be a workbook like comm if you’re ready to start leaning into the work. And, and and if you if you have that feeling inside that you want to change, and you don’t know how to create that abundance in your life. We’ll talk about it, for sure.

Phil Salter 32:48
Awesome, very good. And like I said, Well, I’ll get the link from you to where I can put in the show notes so people can get to this as well as the handle for TikTok. Thanks so much, Todd, I appreciate you taking the time again to talk about this stuff I love. I love talking about these kind of things.

Todd Bauerle 33:04

Phil Salter 33:04
It’s so important. And it’s so it’s so invigorating to talk with someone who really cares about growth and helps you realize things about yourself. And the more you grow, it never stops being exciting. That’s what’s cool. You get this certain milestones, you’re like, wow, I feel like so you can really feel accomplished and great. And then you can just, there’s always more and you can feel that again, you can feel that same rush, no accomplishment,

Todd Bauerle 33:25
which again, comes only from stepping into the unknown.

Phil Salter 33:30
Ahh, That’s true.

Todd Bauerle 33:30
Only and that’s that’s because you realize you have to travel the unknown to get where you want to go. You start to become more and more willing to to to say I don’t know how to do this, but I know that I can therefore I need I need to find a way to grow and do that thing. It’s exciting.

Phil Salter 33:50
Yeah, it is very exciting. And then the more times you see its work, the more you just are excited to be like I don’t know, I was just gonna happen but it’s gonna be fun. It’s gonna be really exciting when it when it does, you know.

Todd Bauerle 34:01
That’s it.

Phil Salter 34:02
Well, thanks again, Todd.

Todd Bauerle 34:03
Thanks, man. I appreciate it.

Phil Salter 34:05
Of course.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

36: Building a Business – Camille Neilsen


Today’s guest is Camille Neilsen, owner of U Dance Studio in Lehi, Utah. Her story is so interesting as she went from growing up studying and dancing ballet, to becoming a dance fitness teacher using Zumba and hip hop for gyms and others dance and fitness businesses.

When she moved back to Utah from Washington state 2 years ago, she decided to go for it and start her own dance fitness studio, which has since evolved to other types of dance disciplines. Her story is so relatable, as she has learned to be confident and own her endeavor. That confidence can take some work to find at times, but it is within all of us!  

You can learn more about and even take classes from her or one of her teachers by visiting utahdanceandfitness.com

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Phil Salter 0:00
All right, welcome to no better time. I’m Phil Salter, and I’m here today with Camille Neilsen. And she is the proud owner of U Dance Studio. It’s a dance fitness kind of situation. I don’t know how to describe that. How would you describe it Camille?

Camille Neilsen 0:16
Um, it’s a dance studio where we kind of have equal parts of fitness and dance fitness for adults. And then kids classes more like a typical dance studio where they start in lower levels and work their way up with ballet and jazz and hip hop and tumbling and lots of different things. So we kind of cater to all ages.

Phil Salter 0:37
See, I did, I didn’t realize you were doing that as well, like actually teaching Oops, sorry, both in our proper dance kind of classes for the beginning for children. I look, that’s awesome. Do you evolved? That’s kind of what we’re going to talk about here is that process and where it is now maybe it looks very different from what you originally meant or thought to be, but which is fun. But one of things I want to ask you kind of kick things off is just kind of ask you a question about, like money. As a child. I always am curious, because people have different places now with money. And we all have our own journey. We could start strong and we can make mistakes, we can have major problems of money and it becoming like, you know, really successful. But for you as a child, what was your relationship with money? Did you get an allowance to just save money do you spend every penny you made?

Camille Neilsen 1:21
I’d say my everyone I think has a natural inclinations that they’re born with with money, because I have a twin sister. And we view money very differently, except we were raised in the same home with the same. But growing up, we had an allowance we worked in for chores and that extra money. As far as saving, I was always kind of helping pay for dance, because it was expensive. And I was in a family of eight kids to actually.But as far as having like my own checking account, or knowing how to really run my own family finances, I don’t think I really knew that until like,near the end of college. Like I don’t, I really knew how to be responsible by myself financially without support of just managing the money like I can always make the money. Yeah, managing it and controlling it. I don’t think I ever felt like I was really encouraged or taught that and I don’t think I had the like, like my sister. She always was super involved in finances, but I don’t think that urge to really go for it. And I don’t think I had the worries either. Like money doesn’t like worry me really was just nice. Because it’s like a thing, I think to not have to worry about it because some people worry for nothing. Yes, some people worry when they should. They should worry, but they don’t. I don’t know. Anyway.

Phil Salter 2:49
So it sounds like you’ve been you’ve been blessed to be able to, to have an abundant life. And also you haven’t stressed about unnecessarily, which is nice. That’s a blessing for sure. You don’t want to be on either side of those things, you know where you You’re stressing all the time because you really just are struggling you know, how do I feed my family blah, blah, blah, or, Hey, I’ll just go and no crazy to Who cares? You know you these are all different things. But that’s very interesting. And I agree I have it we all have our predispositions towards this kind of stuff. Like I have a brother who my younger brother, I brought him up before he’s always been really good with money saves disciplined, you know, and I was just opposite like about money. Like I need to spend it because like it will just disappear either. Anyways, right? Right. So interesting kind of things we learn and as we as we grow. Very cool. So kind of I’m kind of curious what got you originally interested in

dance fitness sounds like you grew up dancing as a dancer. And then where’d that kind of Tipperary said, Hey, obviously have to be fit to dance. But let’s actually make dance fitness thing for you.

Camille Neilsen 3:49
Well, like I always danced. And I also always taught dance in some capacity. Like, typically typical dance studio, I would teach ballet to kids. But then when I moved to Seattle with my husband, we had two little boys and that kind of changed everything. having kids and wanting to be a stay at home. I found that if I taught dance fitness, which I started out teaching Zumba. I was like, This is perfect because I just go to the club, Gold’s Gym, 24 hour fitness class or whatever. I drop off my kids at their little daycare place. And then I teach and they pay for the daycare and I get paid to teach and have fun. I get to work out and so it was kind of like it was already a job I would have loved no matter what but it was like perfect for my family life. Yeah, they combined your passions with your what you needed a job to look like for you. So I would teach like six to 10 classes a week and just take my kids all over and then I’d just be home with them. But they were little they were they were like six months old or seven months old and one and a half. They were only one year apart.

Phil Salter 4:56
Wow, that’s like boom, boom, right?

Camille Neilsen 4:58
Yeah, we were really busy.

Phil Salter 4:59
Yeah. And then so then like you’re teaching zoom, but and then with that kind of hold time you lived out in Seattle, that was something you were really involved with.

Camille Neilsen 5:08
Yes. So you’re there for six years, I think I took a break for a year when I had my daughter, bay, but for five years I taught, I always taught something in some way, shape, or form, whether it was just a little bit, or every single day, or I taught for, you know, a smaller studio or a bigger gym. But it was just like, I got paid to work out to like, I was like, I’m gonna work out anyway, I might as well do and I’m really social. I really like people. And so it was really fun to building a community out there probably as a way to make a lot of friends and build your tribe. Yep. And in Seattle. So there’s so many people in such a small area. I mean, different people, I made some really, really great friends through the community and one fellow instructor and I became really, really close. And so we started to teach together more like for fun. And then that’s kind of like what started me in the direction of like, Oh, hey, I can probably take on more than I have.Because she started teaching, like a kind of a small company where we’d rent out places, and I was like, Hey, I’m gonna work for you, with you for you. And she was like, see? Yes, you know. And so I would teach for her. But then we kind of were doing our own thing away from like, the big box gyms. And then I even started teaching a little bit just in my garage. Like, this is still Seattle, right? Yeah. Okay. And I think that’s when I was like, wow, I can like do more than I thought. And I like it. And I liked it. Was it kind of scary at first, to like, make that jump from hand working for someone else who has this whole thing structures on place, I just kind of drop in and do my thing. Now. It’s like you’re in control. Even just my first class in my garage in Seattle. I was like, put it out there to my friends. And they were like, yeah, so make it up for a little summer class. And I just was like, well, I just had, like, 20 people sign up. And it was really exciting and profound, like, I was okay, like, I’m legit, I’m legitimate. I could do this, like, I want to do this. And I would pay someone I’m like, I would pay me to do this. Like, I was like I would, I would trust my kids with someone like me, you know, because you just don’t know what you’re getting. And I’m like, I felt like I had that quality, where I’m like, Hey, your kids will be safe with me. And I’ll work really hard. And I’m here for them.

Phil Salter 7:28
It sounds like that confidence. I mean, that’s really key towards your success. And I think just success in general. And not that someone might start something not being confident, and that’s okay. But that moment, maybe when you start to really believe, oh, I’m good. And yeah, I would pay me to do this. Yeah, then like, you can really, you can really get behind it and sell it with like, conviction and passion versus like, I don’t know, I got this thing. And then you’re like, it’s not gonna sell it as well. I don’t think.

Camille Neilsen 7:52
I know, it’s crazy. The difference? It really is like, there’s so much opportunity out there. But you really have to be wanting to tap into it and believe you can.

Phil Salter 8:00
Yeah, for sure.

Camille Neilsen 8:01
But it’s not that easy.

Phil Salter 8:03
Yeah, yeah,

Camille Neilsen 8:03
it’s hard.

Phil Salter 8:05
Definitely. And then so then you end up moving back. I guess the next step would be you did that. It was out hard to leave behind. You kind of created this business out there.

Camille Neilsen 8:16
Oh, yeah. Like just having my own little thing, like very little thing was great. But then getting to work with my friend. Um, she just her little community was getting big. And I was a big part of it. And I loved I love being a big part of it, but I love not being in charge. But I was like, therefore, all the time worked really hard paid, well loved. It worked with my family life, because I had three kids at that point. So I was so sad to leave, I didn’t want to move. I didn’t want to bear down a job he wanted. And he, we kind of did it for him. And I didn’t want to and I was really resentful, like, very resentful, because I was like, You’re making me give this thing up that I kind of feel like I’ve been here this whole time. And, and also in the last year, it was like this amazing opportunity. And everything else in my life was just going really great. And I was like, I don’t want to leave. I didn’t want to start over. Like I was like not yet. You know? Yeah, I was about about that.

Phil Salter 9:10
Yeah, so it’s hard like to leave that and come back here. Not that you didn’t see maybe some positives, but leaving this thing you built your friends, your business, all these things. And it’s one of those things you need to be there force. I mean, I guess we’ve learned with COVID that there’s ways to do things a little more creatively, from a distance but still it’s kind of hard.

Camille Neilsen 9:32
Exactly two years ago, we moved

Phil Salter 9:34

Camille Neilsen 9:35
at the end of March. So just barely over two years ago. Um, but yeah, I was just, I was just like, I’m not ready to do anything on my own. Like, I’m so happy in this position, and I want this position to grow. But also I knew deep down I had seen myself do it on my own a little bit.

Phil Salter 9:52
Yeah, that little thing in your crotch, not on the same level as your friends

Camille Neilsen 9:55
but i was i was a huge eye opening experience. And like with my friend, I was like, you should Want me to work with you? Um, awesome. Like,

Phil Salter 10:01

Camille Neilsen 10:02
Not like that. But I was like,

Phil Salter 10:03

Camille Neilsen 10:04
I’m an asset, you know? And

Phil Salter 10:05
oh, yeah

Camille Neilsen 10:05
I just want to go be an asset. Like, I’m happy to be someone else’s asset you know what I mean.

Phil Salter 10:09

Camille Neilsen 10:10
moving. I was like, I was upset that I was gonna be in this position where I was able to decide, do I want to come here and work for someone and be like, their asset? Like someone? I don’t know, right? I don’t want to go to it. Or I don’t wanna go to some small studio and work my way up again. You know, at this point, I was like, I’m like, 36 years old. I don’t want to go and teach you some little kids and not get paid very well. Yeah. And not feel very valued.

Phil Salter 10:37
I totally understand what you’re saying it’s, you can tell you’re kind of torn. Because you didn’t want to just be another cog in someone else’s system. But you also were like, do I really, it’s not easy to build your own thing from nothing. But I want to you like you want to be a boss, but also like, that’s doesn’t come easily. Oh, so what am I gonna do? You come out to Utah.

Camille Neilsen 10:56
super competitive

Phil Salter 10:57
A lot of dance.

Camille Neilsen 10:58
There’s a lot of dance. Like there’s a lot of opportunity. But I was like, looking at every amazing studio, or every studio. That’s not even amazing, but they’re doing really great, right? And I’m just like, Oh, I don’t want to like, have to fight my way out there, you know, and fight for people to like, because I was always like, there’s like 50 other women just like me a stay home mom. I used to be blonde, and taught dance. Fitness. Like I was like, I am like, literally a carbon copy of so many women to the REM going on. Like, I don’t know how I’m going to stand out. You know?

Phil Salter 11:30
Was that like a you think that was based? I mean, obviously, there’s a reality. There’s a lot of dance a lot of competition. But do you feel like in reality there? What did you learn? I guess, like what got you to say, I’m going to try it anyways, I need to try this because you decide I’m going a different angle, or Hey, there’s enough to go around, even if there’s a lot like what got you to, I guess blew past those doubts? And probably fears in a way to.

Camille Neilsen 11:52
I mean, I think I definitely was like, Well, I think deep down, I knew I was gonna have to do it. Yeah. And I Oh, so we found our home in our home had a large RV garage, and my sister looked at me and she’s like, you need to start a dance studio. And that I already had those feelings in that was like the center. You know, I was like, Okay, and so at that point, I thought, well, I know I can do it. I believe in abundance. Even though I was afraid of the competition, like I totally believe in abundance. And, and honestly, that came more and more even more now I believe in that more now than ever before. After doing this for two years, I’m like, there’s always more people, there’s always somebody you know, like, you don’t need to fight over locations, or people or, you know, the product you have, you know, there’s just always going to be more but um, I think coming in knowing we had the studio, knowing I had the skills, and I had the time kind of like, I had spending I’d been spending all this time teaching in Seattle. So my goal, I do have the time and I have a studio at my own home, make my own hours, you know. And so as long as we were okay, investing money into turning the shed into a studio, like with all the stuff that goes on the inside, then I was like, I’m not paying rent, you know, I’m sorry, I just kind of like put those blinders on. And anytime I got nervous, I just was like keep going, go choreograph, go market, go, like nail up some lights, go put the floors and like, I mean, it helps to time, like when you just like shut up your fears. Like it helps a lot.

Phil Salter 13:22
Just move forward with confidence. And, and based on like, some real information. You weren’t just dude saying I have never danced before when I started a dance studio, you know, like you had experience you had skill. you’d seen what you’ve done in the garage. And this is like, this is better than a garage. I got a whole place here that I can make in the studio. And was it was a time in the beginning where it was kind of scary to say out loud. This is what I’m gonna do out of fear of people saying, That’s stupid. There’s so many studios, like why would you even think you could do that? Was there a fear of that feedback?

Camille Neilsen 13:53
And yeah, oh, yeah. I mean, I was like, I’m gonna fail or like, what if I fail, you know, and I just telling people? Oh, yeah, like, I’m starting a studio, you’re like, Do I go loud and proud. It’s like I learned in Seattle to not be afraid. Like, you know, be like, Don’t apologize for yourself, you know, don’t be afraid. And it’s true. I’m like, so many people sell stupid stuff that they’re like, Oh, I don’t want to hear another person selling skincare, you know, but I’m looking here. It’s like, yeah, I can tell people I teach dance. And if they want to come, they’ll come. And if they think I’m annoying, they’ll think I’m annoying for like, a minute, and then they won’t care anymore. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, like, they’re not going to sit around all day long, worrying about me, but I’m like, if I don’t put myself out there, I’m gonna lose hundreds of potential interests. Right? Yeah, it’s so true. Yeah, I kind of got over it. Like your podcasts are like, if I tell people about this, that’s gonna do way more for me than if I may be worried about bothering one person.

Phil Salter 14:43
Yeah. And that’s the thing I’m kind of learning is people are much more open than we ever realized. And people aren’t sitting around being like, I mean, I get those moments where like, you see someone who’s like, part of an MLM and they’re talking about it, and it’s not so much that I’m annoyed. They’re doing it. I put myself in their shoes and think, man, I’d be so scared or nervous or embarrassed to do that myself. But honestly, it was, I don’t think badly of this person for going for it, right?

Camille Neilsen 15:06
So here’s the one person that’s like, I want to buy that, right?

Phil Salter 15:09
And the people that obviously it’s working like there’s no people are interested in and if someone is upset that you’re doing something, then it’s like, well, that’s really their problem. And I’ll just move on, you know. So for sure, that’s really great attitude.

Camille Neilsen 15:21
When I kind of it’s like people say, sell things you care about, but I’m definitely like, I feel like I’m selling like a service. And I think, well, it is a service. And I think it’s a valuable one. And so kind of just feeling like, well, what am I selling? And how do I feel about it? And so like, also, like, I’ll invite people have a class and then you it’s like anything, you get nervous, like we’ll come in, do you want to do a podcast, but I’m like, I got to the point where I’m like, I’m not gonna apologize for asking if they say no, but great. You know, if you ever want to come, the door’s always open. Yeah. I never say Oh, if you want to like, I’m just like, Hey, I had this thing. It’s super fun. You should try it. And whatever they say, My great, you should try it. Like, if you ever want to try it. We’re always here. You know

Phil Salter 15:58
that’s great.

Camille Neilsen 15:59
I just feel like that way. I just have always walking around confident and excited about what I do. And people can totally see that right? It’s

Phil Salter 16:07
Hmm. And you have this feeling like I know that if they try it, they’ll see these benefits. And if they don’t see the benefits, that’s okay, too. But like, more likely, they’ll see like, oh, wow, what would you say that benefits are using dance for fitness? What are they would you say?

Camille Neilsen 16:25
So I think, you know, first of all, like one of the big things of you know, this, this millennium, or whatever is screens, there’s no screens in there. It’s like Hello, for adults and kids, it’s like, come be a part of a group of people where you’re not staring at a screen. And then exercise is so good for you like more and more and more coming out. I think group exercise has a huge pool because people need that social time. Not only that, that social community feeling just in that one hour class, but it also pushes the group harder. Like everyone in that workout room looks a little bit harder than they would alone. And also, as far as dance goes, dance is a really like emotional activity with the music and the movement. And so with all the music that’s like, really energetic, it is going to like lift you up, like pumps you up and like kind of moves you forward. I think sharing that feeling. I think there’s a reason why people love it. I mean, people have been doing dancing forever. I mean jazzercise in the 80s. That basically now I do like hip hop fitness. That’s more what I do now. But Zumba was huge for at least a decade. And it’s still popular. Hip Hop, dance, fitness, all sorts of things, dance hall, there’s just so many different ways of dance. And I think having people together in a room and you know, working together, and also learning like dance is different than running like your brain is like, constantly moving. And I think that’s so good for your mental development. And like, connecting wires, like I know, as you get older, they really suggest things like dance fitness for the elderly, even. because it keeps your brain working more, instead of doing just like a walk around the block.

Phil Salter 18:11

Camille Neilsen 18:12
A lot of research on that, too.

Phil Salter 18:13
That’s why I keep seeing old people doing hip hop dance on the streets. And I’m just kidding. No, that’s, that’s really cool.

Camille Neilsen 18:19
We got some old people there. Yeah.

Phil Salter 18:20
Nice. That’s awesome. Well

Camille Neilsen 18:22
I don’t plan on stopping anytime soon.

Phil Salter 18:24
Oh, good for you. I don’t, I don’t see why you would it’s it’s really growing. In fact, just as like, maybe a final thing to kind of go over. I’m curious, we mentioned earlier, like, you started kind of, I remember, this is been kind of fun watching you on Facebook, posting things and seeing the studio space evolve and improve, you know, and being kind of very simple. And now it’s got, like, I believe even like air conditioning, and like, lighting and all these cool things a lot, a lot. And so like was that each time you had to get to a certain point, I guess you say? How did you decide when to invest more into it? You know, what was that calculation? Like, hey, if I do this, is there a reason like, because I know I can get more people coming? Because I’m comfortable or what was kind of behind those upgrades?

Camille Neilsen 19:10
Right. I mean, and I’m definitely a lot more different now financially than I was before, like a lot more calculated. So really can learn and change as you grew up with your finances. So that’s been like a learning experience for me. But definitely I invested a lot early on into the studio from savings. Almost all the money I had made in the last year in Seattle, I put all into the studio on my own. And then we did like the bare minimum at first, like we just needed floors and mirrors and music and people still came to like a blazing hot shed in the summer and Utah, you know, and then in the fall started really cold because the shed didn’t have insulation. And so by the time he started being called a mechanic and installation, I need a heater. But that was a big chunk of money and then I didn’t do much and then I started getting more income and then the next spring I added like more like In the decoration like shiplap on the walls, like a closet, some wallpaper I worked on, making the ceiling look more like a nice ceiling like, but with everything, I just would look through all the options and get ideas from ever I could look that I wanted to place like people like, Well, you didn’t really have to decorate. And I’m like, Well, I wanted this to look nice for me, like I’m gonna walk in and be like, this is classy. And so yeah, I hopefully I’m not going to be having to put a lot more into the studio, I think it’s after two years, just kind of where I want to be for a long time. Yeah. But I just put like a logo up on the inside of the garage door. And that was really cool. So now with all of like our posting and stuff, we have the logo like in the background. And so it’s like, just really exciting to see the look of the studio match kind of like what we feel like it is as a home, like a dance studio home as well as kind of having the logo of your dance studio like putting that out there for everyone to see. Yeah, just slowly making those decisions, but always maintaining, like, I didn’t want to get into any kind of debt.

Phil Salter 21:05
Yeah, I see more time.

Camille Neilsen 21:07
You know, you don’t have to do it all at once.

Phil Salter 21:09
Yeah, and I’m not I mean, for me, I’m a very like get gung ho kind of person. So it’d be hard for me to say, not do it all because you want it you have I’m sure you had this vision of what it could be like aesthetically and functionally. And say, let me prove this first. Let me you know, I have this idea, this concept, I’m going to take a certain amount of risk in getting the bare minimum. Okay, things are running. Did you find that as you’ve added, and made it more comfortable space and meet those needs? Has it helped it grow? I mean, it sounds like people are still interested even with it being hot. And it’s

Camille Neilsen 21:42
yeah. Oh, yeah. I think definitely. People walk in now they’re like, Whoa, like, that’s their their reaction now. And they come in as holy cow. You look on the outside, and you don’t think it looks like this? Yeah, it actually experienced I think for sure. Well, when I go places, anywhere, like my kids preschool or another dance studio or restaurant, like I care about ambience. And so I know some people don’t, but I do. And so my goal is to have have it look really nice, right? Absolutely. Like have to maintain the level of quality instruction. Yeah. So I definitely was someone who’s like, I’m happy to have both I want both and having it be a home dance studio. Like, I kind of feel like I want to look as professional as I can, since it’s like, connected to my house. Yeah, that’s true. I feel like that is going to be a level for people to be like, oh, but it’s like at someone’s house, you know. And so the best I can do to keep it more professional feeling. I think that’s going to serve me better since it is, you know, in a residential neighborhood.

Phil Salter 22:42
But you also have other instructors, right, that you started just you?

Camille Neilsen 22:46

Phil Salter 22:47
and then you kind of and as far as deciding, hey, let me add these new kinds of classes, maybe kid children, this intro to ballet or jazz, or other types of fitness? Or just pure dance classes, I guess? Like that was kind of a calculation as well to see. Did you kind of get your feelings out there? Like, hey, if I were to add this kind of class would people join? That’s kind of,

Camille Neilsen 23:09
yeah, yeah, I feel like so many things have evolved. And that’s the thing with any business owner, like you got to like, really keep your mind open. I always joke, I’m like, I’m not trying to make like, fetch a thing. Like, I’m not trying to, like, make something be what it is. Like, I don’t care. Like I don’t care. I’m not gonna force it if it’s not gonna happen. And so when I started teaching kid classes, they were kind of like kid fitness. But I just found a lot of people here want technique. They want their kids to be tumblers. They want their kids to be ballerinas and functional dancers. And so I can do that. And but in Seattle, it was different in Seattle, people were like, I just want my kids to move. Yeah, I just want them to get out there move and have fun and dance. And but it doesn’t have to be all this choreography and all this technique. So anyway, so I just started to implement more of like a typical dance to the levels that I grew up with. And that, that brought more people in, that’s like, that’s me that was here that I didn’t know how strong that was,

Phil Salter 24:04
kind of remove that preconceived notion of what it was going to be and be like, Oh, this, this is a need. And I can feel the state and I have the ability, and you start to vet people to be part of your system to teach those things in the way you feel. It needs to be taught on a certain level and quality. That’s really exciting.

Camille Neilsen 24:20
being open to feedback, like asking my son because one of my sisters she was like, I think people want like more technical stuff for their kiddos. And is that like, easy to hear? I mean, it wasn’t hard to hear, but it you definitely need to be okay, like I can hear that. And I can make the changes that is different than what I was thinking. And so it’s been like, like, I teach adult classes now like adult dance classes, like adult ballet, adult jazz, that there’s not a big market for and it is huge in my studio, like way bigger than I thought it would be. And I think it’s because since we have all these fitness classes, people have gotten to know each other really well. So then people started saying, Hey, can we do like a real jazz class like, like as a kid and I’ve beenreally surprised, like, I got like, 14 people and they’re committed, we buy costumes, we do dances, I want your wife to join us. And so

Phil Salter 25:08
she should I think it’s funny that we have our babies over a year, she’s starting to, like, be like, I can do things. Again, not that she could No, it’s just exhausting. And I extend, but I’m trying to encourage her, you know, to do more of these kind of things. It’s really good for the heart and soul, particularly of a dancer, which I’m not, but I can, I can understand on the level, I guess, of how that fulfills a need. Yeah, physically and emotionally.

Camille Neilsen 25:34
That’s definitely a market I did not know would be this strong. And I feel like it’s, I’m just at the beginning of how strong that could be. So that’s, I don’t know where that’s gonna go. I don’t know, if I’m gonna have a bunch of adult classes. And, like, as far as we just had our performance weekend, we perform just like all the kids. And that’s awesome. And people were super into it. And we were into it. And I was like, you’re the hardest class as like, these adult classes are the hardest working classes I have, like these women, these mamas are like, I’m not backing down. Like, I

Phil Salter 25:59
feel like living their dream or going back to an old some, I’m sure there’s some that have done it before. And some that want to experience it that was maybe afraid to try when they were kids or adults. It’s never too late, then.

Camille Neilsen 26:10
That’s right,

Phil Salter 26:11
the name of my podcast is “No Better Time” and there’s no better time. So I’m so excited for you to see where this goes. And as it evolves in your attitude towards it will it will evolve into what it can be, and will be. And I do agree. Like Listen, that feedback can be hard because I’ve received feedback recently about my photography business. And I had to like, take a moment to be like, what do you think you are telling me this happened to us for four years? And I’m like, wait a minute, that’s actually makes sense. It made it and once I listened, we’ve changed that like really to like change my life. Seriously. So thanks so much for your time. Cool. It’s been really awesome to hear your story. And if anybody has any questions about Camille’s for Camille, that I can forward onto he can email me at nobettertime.podcast@gmail.com I’ll give them to her.If you have questions in general about any episode or I suggestions for episode topics, I’d love to hear that too. Please go to Apple podcasts you can rate and review my podcast there, subscribe wherever you listen. So thanks for listening. And just today, just remember there is really no better time than now to start something that you’re intimidated by whether it’s learning more about finances, whether it’s about dancing at U Dance Studio, or somewhere nearby this equivalent, whatever it is fulfill those dreams and live them. Alright, thanks Camille.

Camille Neilsen 27:33
Thank you

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

35: Maximizing Your HSA – Jonathan Gawrych


Do the letters HSA mean anything to you? If not, then this episode is for you! If you know what an HSA (Health Savings Account) is, then there is a decent chance there are some aspects of an HSA as a retirement vehicle that you are not aware of, or could use a reminder. 

The HSA is a very powerful tool with great tax benefits. Today I get into it with Jonathan Gawrych who you may remember from previous episodes. The HSA is one of the first things you can do to start building retirement wealth if you are not already doing it. If you do not have the option with your current health insurance plan, it is something to consider moving forward, especially if your company is setup to also contribute to your HSA if you have one. I hope you enjoy this episode!

You can learn more about what an HSA is at https://www.healthcare.gov/glossary/health-savings-account-hsa/

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34: Learning How to Budget – Erik Donohoo


Does the skill of budgeting feel like something that has eluded you? Do you put it down on paper and it looks so good, but then at the end of the month your actual spending looks nothing like your plan? When it comes down to it, it is hard to say no to things we want, especially if we don’t have enough confidence in our ability to stick to our budget in the first place. Having a realistic budget and sticking to it is possibly the most important first step to building wealth and executing our plans for building wealth. Today I speak with Erik Donohoo about budgeting and specifically using the ” You Need a Budget” or “YNAB” app for budgeting. This is just one powerful tool we both love for budgeting but is of course not the only way to go. The important thing is to come up with a budget and sticking to it, and not beating yourself up when you don’t. Feeling like a failure and not pivoting when we make financial mistakes doesn’t get us closer to where we want to be either. I hope you enjoy!

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Other music:
Ambivert by | e s c p | https://escp-music.bandcamp.comMusic promoted by https://www.free-stock-music.com
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Phil Salter 0:00
Welcome to no better time. I’m Phil Salter, and me today with Eric Donna who, who is someone I’ve known for several years. Hello, Eric, thanks for joining me. Hello. And you’re someone that I’ve mentioned in previous episodes. I haven’t gotten a lot into budgeting specifically, I’ve kind of glanced over it. But I mentioned how I use a but an app called you need to budget or why NAB, I don’t know if that’s really what they call it. But that’s what we call it, and how there was a period of time, I don’t know, maybe two or three years ago that you had brought it up to me. And also my brother had brought it up to me around the same time, you’re two people that I have a lot of respect for in your opinions. And I was like, maybe I should look into this thing. So that’s kind of one of the things I want to talk with you about today. But even before that, I’m kind of curious. Something I’ve always want to ask people, what it’ll always remember to is to ask kind of what would you say your relationship was to money as a child growing up? Did you make money? Did you have an allowance? Did you save money?

Erik Donohoo 1:08
I honestly don’t remember, if I ever had an allowance or not.

I don’t remember having an allowance. But I started working. By the time I was probably 11. I had a paper route. And we would drive our four wheeler at six in the morning around the neighborhood because we did the neighborhood that we lived in basically. And we would fold them all up in the morning, throw them in like a big storage plastic bin. That was bungee cord into the back of the four wheeler and we my brother would go around throwing them out. But after a year or so some neighbor we was complaining about the sound of our four wheeler every morning. So

Phil Salter 1:48
early in the morning. Yeah.

Erik Donohoo 1:51
So the paper out came to an end, my parents weren’t willing to get up and drive us around. So that was the only way they were willing to let us

Phil Salter 1:57
have a paper out. Because you have all brothers. You’d like for brothers. For younger brothers. Yeah, for everybody. You’re the oldest who instigated doing the paper I was it you? Did your parents say this would be a good thing, or do you remember that?

Erik Donohoo 2:10
I don’t remember. If I asked my mom, she probably no, it was probably them. The only

Phil Salter 2:17
so paper routes, I remember my family having a paper route at one point. And we take turns going with my dad really early in the morning. And I remember specifically going into paper route when my dad told me how babies were made. So I have this memory of like paper routes and being like, You’re joking, right? And like, but he wouldn’t joke about this. So but that’s great. So did you instead Yeah, thanks. Um, so having a paper as the first time you remember making money do remember kind of what you did with that money? Did you say hey, I gotta go spend this money to, you know, like, man, I don’t know what I did. I have no, I probably bought Pokemon cards. Yeah, well, so when you can say like, maybe that’s the earliest you remember. But kind of let’s say fast forward. Did you have a job while you’re in high school? Did you just we just,

Erik Donohoo 3:04
I mean, I since that paper out, I’ve always had a job. So do the paper out. And then when I was 14, I think I became a part our substitute cleaner at the at the elementary school that I went to as a younger kid. So I was vacuuming and cleaning school after after school, they had kids do that job.

Phil Salter 3:25
Like a pay you.

Erik Donohoo 3:26
Yeah, it was a paid job. So I was paid. I wasn’t a full time one. So I wasn’t doing it every day. But I was. I was there probably once a week or so just filling in. And then after that I got a job as a part time, Salt Lake County Library System shelter.

Phil Salter 3:49
So I would take him books back to them, where they would

Erik Donohoo 3:52
literally just take books that were returned to sort of on a cart and roll them around and put them back on the shelves. And I would do that for four hours at a time at random libraries all throughout Salt Lake County, because I was solid county library systems kind of all connected, and I was I would just fill in at libraries where somebody had time off or was sick or something, but was the age. That was I think starting it like that might have been 16 cuz I’m pretty sure I was driving myself was

Phil Salter 4:22
more of like, more traditional, like working age at that point. But yeah, you have a history. Like you said, you’ve always had a job. You’re someone with a really high work ethic. Yeah, you worked really hard, but you work really smart and you’re about not just wasting time, right? So I’m sure we even when you did that at the library, your your way even back then where you’re like, hey, how can I be most efficient with this?

Erik Donohoo 4:43
I just remember being disturbed with the graphicness of the erotic female novels, covers. They had to put away. women would read I just couldn’t believe that. I just felt bad for people that were getting there. kicks off of that stuff made you feel good for them and they found their passion. We all want to find our passion, right? I found their vicarious passion that they would live through the generic, tall, long haired, muscular man and frail, thin. You know, take me daddy woman in every book

Phil Salter 5:22
LBO types, right. And like some of them literally were Fabio drunk. Right? I think he really was a bottle for those. So then you did you did you ever were you much of a saver? I’m wondering because I just think because for me, like, I never was a saver growing up. I always spent money as I got it.

Erik Donohoo 5:41
I I was kind of like the, my group of friends. I was the chauffeur. So I do most of the driving, and I’d pay for most of the gas. And I mean, my parents didn’t pay for any my stuff. I think they did pay for my car insurance. But like I had to pay for everything else that I did. So I don’t I don’t I didn’t have a big chunk of savings. But by the time I was done with high school, like I should have, I should have, but I always found things to spend my money on, I like to use it instead of lose it.

Phil Salter 6:11

Erik Donohoo 6:12
So I wasn’t really budget minded or, or thinking about any of that at that age.

Phil Salter 6:16
So then what happened because I gira, I would call you a fair, quite successful person, you know, it’s all it’s all relative. But you’re definitely someone who’s done well and has worked hard and gain skills. And over the years, you’ve found yourself making more and more money, I’m sure like a lot of us do as time passes. At what point did you start to realize I need to start budgeting? Or did you know, when did that kind of start coming into play?

Erik Donohoo 6:47
I mean, when I got sick of living paycheck to paycheck,

Phil Salter 6:51
did you find that making more money and not poor, but I’m still kind of living paycheck to paycheck did that well, it got

Erik Donohoo 6:58
it got harder when we had our first baby Charlie, and I had to get a full time job with benefits to help pay for, for babies. And so we did that. And then shortly thereafter, we bought our first house that we’re that I’m in right now. We had a condo before that we owned, but we we tried to keep that and then rent this out, or rent the condo out while staying here. And that just made finances really tight. Because the you know, that was back in. Oh, we bought it in 2000, it was 2014 we started to rent that. And the amount of money I was getting out of rent was basically just barely enough to cover the mortgage. And so I was always feeling like I had to, you know, save some of my own money to put aside for the things that would inevitably happen in the condo. Plus, the MTC didn’t really pay that great. And when you add that up to all the new bills for a new baby and then taking care of the condo, and then a new mortgage on house,

Phil Salter 7:57
it was feeling a liability to you than an asset, right? Yeah.

Erik Donohoo 8:01
And it was just tight, my money was tight, we, you know, had I’m sure we had a credit card balance at that point. And we were making minimum payments on it. At one point we’d had we had our credit cards completely paid off, and then somewhere between getting them paid off when we first got married and getting into this house and having a baby we’d built up some balance again. So it was it was time to do something about it. And I it was ultimately Aaron Gibson, who showed told me about why now working at go react. And I don’t know it just resonated with me and and made sense. And the rest is history as they say.

Phil Salter 8:39
We want more of the history lesson, right? Like, I want to because you you kind of cared about this app and what is it you feel like really helped you and obviously, I wish I was sponsored by wine app, but it’s just something I’ve applied there twice. Oh, have you good for you?

Erik Donohoo 8:56
Yeah, they’re fully remote company, but they are based in Utah.

Phil Salter 8:59
And there’s other people I know that are all about it. Like Jonathan who we work with who’s actually also been on the podcast is really geeked out over it and how to really

Erik Donohoo 9:08
yeah, I think he heard about it from me and Aaron as well.

Phil Salter 9:10
Yeah. But like what is it that you found it like maybe not specifically to say hey, this is the app but like what about this app that helped made it so that budgeting became more successful for you that something that was there

Erik Donohoo 9:23
it’s it’s it’s the four rules that white have their philosophy and their four rules that kind of resonated with me you know, the concept of giving every dollar a job and you know before this probably like most people I was using is it meant Yes. Have you ever heard they were called but meant is meant isn’t so much a budget as it is a here’s where you spent your money. You know, you can connect your credit cards and it’ll show you everything and it’ll show you categories and you can set up like little budget categories, saying I want to spend this much here and this much here but you’re not budgeting your own money. You’re just basically saying I’m guessing that I want to spend this much which is not budgeting the I read an article about why not well At one point, they said, meant is like a crime scene investigator, whereas why NAB is more like Minority Report and working with the precogs. Because MIT was just, you know, your budget is a dead body, and you’re looking at what happened to your money and trying to figure out where it went and what you did with it. Whereas wine AB you’re planning and you’re thinking into the future and trying to prevent a dead budget body from occurring, by knowing these are the expenses I’m going to have, and planning for them and preparing for them.

Phil Salter 10:34
Yeah, it’s kind of it’s more proactive, right? And not that there’s not value in looking back, which you can do with obviously, with wine app, as well say, what did I spend my money on? And where did it really go? But like, Yeah, right, you get your money here, paycheck, and then you start to have this available money to then start putting in categories, which I kind of think of is like individual little accounts, you know, there was a time when I used to have multiple accounts at different banks. And I was like, Oh, I want to take this money, put it over here that I’ll use only for, for gas. And if I hopefully I don’t, you know, use it all up every month. And then I realized I don’t need all these accounts. In fact, I got sick of always looking at my account to see Can I buy groceries this week, you know, how much is left in there. Instead using why now, but you just see how much is left in that grocery category. And as you start to fill in these other categories, and I want you to maybe dive into like, okay, all my category, I got paid. Everything’s been funded for this month like, and you can put goals and their friends and say, hey, I want to put 100 bucks a week towards groceries, for instance. So then once that’s in there, you know you have enough. What’s the next step? Once you say, hey, I’ve covered my expenses for this month, and there’s still money to be budgeted.

Erik Donohoo 11:48
You’re all that’s where you that’s where the power of a budget really comes in. A lot of people think about budgeting as being restrictive, it’s, it’s, they don’t want to budget, they don’t want to know what the balance of their checking account is. Because they don’t want to have to not do the things they want to do. But that’s such a that’s the exact opposite thing that a real budget really does. A real budget helps you to do the things that you want to do, because you get real about what expenses and bills that you have. And you decide what are the things you really care about and put the money there. And you’re forced to have to compromise in areas that well, if I really care about this, then I can’t also care about that. Like if I really want to have you know, 100 bucks a month to play golf, then I can’t go eat out and spend $250 a month on eating out I just can’t do that anymore. So to be more disciplined with eating out, you have to choose what is the based on them. I mean, everybody’s got a set amount of money that they have available to them. But regardless of how much money you have, you can live within your means. And as you get more money, hopefully you don’t change your lifestyle too much. And you can just start building up actual wealth. Yeah, yeah, for me, I try to get, I try to get a few months of all my expenses budgeted out in advance. So when I finish a month, I start moving forward to the next month and in the next month. And why now until I’ve got, you know, I want to always have at least four months of everything budgeted out? And why not? And then after that, you know, any extra money you have, I don’t feel like I need to go any farther in the future. So I’ll start pie in the sky like Well, what do I want to do with this extra money? Do I put more towards retirement? Do we increase our vacation budget do? What do we do? So you work it out as a family of what what do we really want to do? What do we care about, we want to do some house upgrades, you know, and you start having extra money to put towards those things.

Phil Salter 13:26
And I think it’s one thing that’s really important it comes to budgeting is realizing that everyone has to make choices and has to have priorities. And there’s people, you really, no matter how much money you make, you can always just end up spending it all if you don’t have a plan. And if you don’t have priorities, I remember I was reading I’m reading a book right now called like the simple power path to wealth or something. And there was an example of a guy who just got his $800,000 bonus check for the year. That’s just his bonus check. And he was complaining to this person is author about how she’s not enough is always expensive. It’s like okay, that’s a certain kind of lifestyle he’s established that requires a lot of capital to maintain. He’s got a lot of debt payments that that a lot of debt. And yeah, exactly. You know what I mean, but it’s just certain lifestyle. So I used to think like, we my wife would have conversations like, Oh, we’ve we’re making more money we used to but then we’re still like having to make these choices. And that’s not a failure. It’s like, no, that’s just part of life. And they’re always gonna have to do he can’t say yes to everything all the time. Like, who has that, like an unlimited amount of money? Very few people, you know what I mean? And the people have a lot of money that truly are wealthy, it’s because they’ve remained discipline, nine times out of 10, if not more, you know what I mean? Or they’re a trust fund kid. He exactly is that if you haven’t just had money land on your lap, like it’s because of discipline, because you can, like I said, the more money you make, the more you can find a way to spend so

Erik Donohoo 14:51
the true key is to be happy with what you have and not always be wanting more like yes, we have a lifestyle that you’re satisfied with and as you make more money actually build wealth. That you can stop worrying about making money and stop worrying about having to provide and like literally just spend your time doing what it is that you want to do, because you’ve already resolved the money situation.

Phil Salter 15:09
Yeah, it is funny how sometimes we, we sacrifice the things that we really want for like the things that we kind of want right now. You know what I mean? Like a cheeseburger looks so good. Yeah. And so it’s, it’s not it’s really amazing though. Like, once you start to like, take control and make choices and plan. Like you could do so much more. Like all of a sudden, I feel like, Oh, we can actually go on vacations. When before I feel I could never find a way to afford it. You

Unknown Speaker 15:33
know what I mean? Like, yeah, I’m really do more, and pay with it all in cash, and you don’t feel any guilt spending it. It makes it.

Phil Salter 15:43
And I mean, honestly, I’m still working on it. Like, I’m still we’re not perfect. And that’s the great thing about this is, no one’s perfect. You’re gonna overspend on certain budget items. You know,

Erik Donohoo 15:53
that’s one of the philosophies of why now is rolling with the punches, you know, you go over and groceries, all it means is you have to pull money out of some other category. And, and balance things out. So, you know, something happened, some things come up, life happens, you don’t have to beat yourself up over it, you just roll with the punches, move some money, and you move on.

Phil Salter 16:10
Yeah, that’s the thing. If you get too obsessed with like, not like being perfect. When you do mess up, it’s not easy to say forget it. And just like that, it just becomes worse. You know, that just like, as

Erik Donohoo 16:19
long as your mess up isn’t like, Oh, I bought a 15 $100 TV I didn’t need oops, you know? Like, yeah, then you you might have to, like address your spending addiction and like, just wanting to have things problem. Like, I feel bad for people whose happiness is based on things. Yeah. And that’s, that’s a never ending. Just, you get it. And then the novelty wears off. And then two days later,

Phil Salter 16:42
you have buyer’s remorse. It’s true. And I’ve had that feeling myself. And it’s something that you start to realize, the more you have wins financially, like, Oh, this feels way better than that immediate rush of buying that thing that I really knew I shouldn’t have, you know, so yeah, for sure.

Erik Donohoo 17:02
I mean, there’s some things that you know, you can justify, like, how often do you use it? How like, that’s the thing is like, is it actually going to improve the quality of my life? Like, is there really a difference between my evening enjoyment? When I look at a $500 TV versus a 15 $100? TV? Like, is there really going to be a difference there? Yeah, I would spend good money on your bed, you spend a third of your life in your bed by quality bed, it’s worth the $2,000 if you’re going to be in it eight hours a day. Yeah, have a reliable vehicle, get get it paid off as quick as you can, and then just ride it till it’s dead.

Phil Salter 17:34
Yeah, and I think that, um, that’s the thing, I always thought it was about, like, being super disciplined, and, like, super minimal and scrounging all the time and like, eating really simple food or not, you know, not eating, you know, but it’s like, no, it’s about like, just having a plan and sticking to it. You know, if you say, hey, for me, I want this much money for groceries. And that’s a high priority for me, because I want to eat like fresh vegetables and fruit every day. And I want to have really offerings, do it, but just know what that budget is for that and stick to you just

Erik Donohoo 18:04
have to know what it means for the other things in your life.

Phil Salter 18:06
And wow, that means so I guess that means like, I can’t do these other things. And that’s fine. You know, so yeah. And that’s, I think, I think we get it. But I just think that it’s so important to, to not have a minimal, like a minimalist or a scarcity mindset. I mean, around this, because it’s easy to think that’s what it is. But really, this is about creating abundance, man, it really does. We’re asking the other day about how well in my account my bank account, because money just kind of starts to because it’s cool, because with the wind app, in particular money kind of rolls over into categories. You know, it’s really nice. It like helps you see, like, Oh, I budgeted, let’s say 500 for groceries, I spend 400 I wish that was the case. But like $100 rolls over, I wish I only spent 500 on groceries. Yeah. And that I ever went $100 under budget for groceries. But um, you know what I’m saying. But then like, you could say, let’s say like, there’s a particular category that keeps like, Oh, I don’t always spend it all, you know, then you can re just say I maybe I don’t need to put as much in blah, blah, but it’s really great. But like, I’ve never noticed, I’ve never had so much money just sitting in my bank account. Over time, it just continues to grow because more money kind of gets building up in these different categories. And that’s, that’s how it was for me too. Yeah, so some

Erik Donohoo 19:19
more money helps. But like, if you don’t already have a good habits with how to how to handle money, then you can make a lot more money. And then you can be like the guy that gets an $800,000 bonus and still feel stressed out about it.

Phil Salter 19:30
Yeah. And if someone’s listening this and like you can either be the person that doesn’t make that much money is trying to make more money. learn these skills now because it’s just gonna benefit you. If you’re someone who makes $200,000 a year and you feel like you were living paycheck to paycheck. You’re not alone. Like this happens to like a lot of people and you can get out of that cycle and you can, it is all about budgeting. Yeah,

Erik Donohoo 19:51
I was I was in that cycle. I know how it is.

Phil Salter 19:53
I appreciate you taking the time to talk about this. I know it’s something it’s made a huge benefit in my life. to focus on budgeting more. And one thing that me and my wife do, and I don’t know if you guys do this, but and we’ve gotten kind of bad at lately, we’re trying to get back on the wagon is having like meetings every week where we talk about the budget and our plans. And we’ve had so much success in the past where we’d say, this is the week, what do we do? Well, this last week, where do we kind of fail? Oh, we overspent here. What do we need to what do we need to have money for this in this coming week or month? You know, so it’s like, oh, actually, we have this extra thing we don’t normally have we have to get putting money aside for that. When we’ve done that it’s made the biggest difference. It’s very similar to like, when you’re on a software development team, and you have a planning meeting, right? And you decide what you’re going to do that week. Have you ever done something like that? Yeah, yeah.

Erik Donohoo 20:46
I agree. It is powerful. It’s, it’s hard to always do, you kind of get in a rhythm and and you learn what your what your goal, what’s your priorities aren’t what your habits are. And you just kind of get a discipline of like, well, there’s this much in the budget. And I know I can spend that much. And if it’s if it’s gone, it’s gone. And yeah, till next month,

Phil Salter 21:04
I think that’s the place to start for maybe anyone who doesn’t budget is if you have a significant other to have candid conversations about what your goals are, and what you’re doing, and where your money’s going. And that’s really hard and scary. And depending on who’s the person who maybe is more apt to spend, that could be difficult. But usually one is potentially more interested in the finances, and the other one just doesn’t want to care about it and wants to just go to spend money and not worry about it. But once you both start to see the wins together, that’s when it really starts to gel. And that’s super vital to be on the same page, because you could be working your butt off. And if the other person is just not staying with the plan, then it’s just it’s not going to work. But Yep. Anyways, that’s just a little thing. Anyways, I’ll go ahead, sorry,

Erik Donohoo 21:49
I was gonna say I would just say like, if you feel like you’re in a situation where thinking about your finances stresses you out, then I would recommend giving wine ab a try and stick to it for at least three months and watch how you actually have some money in your bank account and you start to get a little breathing room. As long as you committed to it. I can promise you that you’ll start to see a difference. And you’ll feel like you’re in more control of your life and not like you are just at the whim of whatever bill comes up. Yes,

Phil Salter 22:19
yes. Be able to go do the things by the things you need, with competence knowing, oh, this is the I have this money. And it was meant for this and that’s okay. That’s why I put it there. Alright, thanks, Eric, for joining me, I really appreciate it. If anybody wants to add to the conversation. If you have questions, or topics you’d like to be discussed on the podcast, you can email me at No Better Time. podcast@gmail.com All right, thanks. Have a great day and start thinking about how you can have a plan with your money and stick to it and just do better. Always just love to do a little better each month because we’re going to make mistakes. We’re going to fall short. But if we just do a little better each month, then that’s the that’s the winning trajectory. So Alright, have a good one.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

33: QuickDive – Are You an Investing Insider?


Do you feel like investing and building wealth is only for the brightest and most elite? I used to feel that way too. We do not have to feel like we are on the outside of an arena where only the professionals can play the game. With a little information and direction, we can find public arenas/courts/fields to play the game. It still takes work and your skills will improve with time, but you need to get on the court and start playing ASAP!

Click this link to support the Podcast! https://anchor.fm/nobettertime/support

Logo created by Rufus Man (https://www.facebook.com/rufusman101) creator of Yonder Comics (https://www.patreon.com/yondercomics)

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Outro song:
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Other music:
Ambivert by | e s c p | https://escp-music.bandcamp.comMusic promoted by https://www.free-stock-music.com
Attribution 4.0 International (CC BY 4.0)

Lucid Dreaming by | e s c p | https://escp-music.bandcamp.com
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Phil Salter 0:01
All right. Welcome to no better time. I’m Phil Salter. And I’ve been thinking about something for my quick dive today, a conversation I had with my brother in law during my family union a couple weeks ago.

And he was kind of expressing to me how much he’s kind of being inspired by me doing this podcast and kind of get excited to dive more into investing. But he just like, doesn’t know where to start. And I know this feeling of feeling like it’s so far away. so complicated, so difficult. And just kind of only for like, people have a certain eliteness or something. And he kind of compared it to like, I feel like, there’s this game happening, people are playing this really difficult professional level sport inside of an arena. And I didn’t even Anam on the outside arena. I don’t even know how to get in there. And I’m like how it looks. And we started diving into this analogy of like, trying to find the entrance to the arena. And once you know where that is, then you’re getting then you’re sitting in the stands, and you’re watching them play and you get a better perspective, you start to learn, oh, that’s how the game works. That’s the rules. That’s what they’re doing. But they’re still doing this, like, elite professional levels. So if I’m at an NBA game, and I’m watching LeBron James play basketball, just because I can see him doing it does not mean Oh, now I can go do that. Right. So it’s not it’s a good analogy. And so when I came up with but it’s not the doesn’t necessarily tell the story as it really is. Because it still makes it seem like it’s this elite thing that we can actually do. Because it’s like, it’s not like you can go to a game, you know, a football game or a soccer game, and a professional level or basketball game. And before you know what you’re watching and now you’re sitting on the you know, the courtside seats. Now your next thing you know you’re in the game. No, you’re not going to be in that game. But it’s more like this. There’s a bass, there’s a public basketball court somewhere where you can play. And you don’t have to be able to play at the professional level. To be able to play the game and start getting warmed up and start improving your skills and see progress. You just need a little information. He needs some directions to that public park, where that basketball court is because if you look just outside your door and say, There’s nowhere to play basketball, you have to very well there’s nowhere to play baseball, where would I pay baseball has to be a very specific kind of field. There are public baseball fields, you might have like a game like golf, that’s even more of a barrier of entry. And that might even be a better analogy. Because there is a certain barrier of entry to investing, you have to learn some things. You have to know where to go, you have to know where to put it in, you know, just it’s not like crazy information to learn. But it is a barrier of entry. Same with golf, you need to get some clubs, you need to know where a golf club is. For the clubs to play with, and the place you play golf is a golf club. Why am I having trouble remembering this? what it’s called? Right? It’s called a golf club where you play golf. Oh my gosh, my brain right now. But you may think well, that’s for rich people. Well, yeah, of course it does cost money, not just anybody go golfing, I’m not gonna act like this is not a privilege to do. Investing is a privilege that some people feel like they’ll never be able to do. But if someone was really anyone could golf if they really, really wanted to, they could find a way to borrow or rent some clubs, and go online. And book a tee time. Anyone can do this. It’s scary, because it’s really nerve racking when you go tee up. Going hit up, try to hit the golf ball for the first time. Guess what you can go pay for a bucket of balls and go to a driving range. In practice, there’s ways to get familiarized with stuff, you can go read books, you can listen to my podcast, and you can learn about investing. That’s your warmup. That’s your driving range. And the time will come we need to put that ball on that tee and go for your first drive

in a real round of golf. And you’re likely going to make mistakes, and it’s gonna go into the dirt or you might completely miss the ball together. But every time you swing, you’re getting better. So let’s not be intimidated by the overwhelming thing in front of us. Because guess what the thing we think is overwhelming is not that overwhelming. I golf pretty regularly now. And I used to be so intimidated by this idea. And so afraid that I would embarrass myself think about this. If I go try to invest money and I just, I might embarrass myself. If I’d ask questions, not ask questions learn. Don’t be intimidated. By doing this thing that seems so difficult because nothing is as difficult as it seems. I was driving with my cousin Jericho just yesterday having conversation and I was just talking about man like I mentioned how like, oh, something he seems really over really hard to do. But I was like, everything’s just step by step. I don’t remember what he’s like. And he’s like, do you think that applies to everything, any other things in life, I’m like, absolutely. Any challenges then we want to do or learn. It’s about finding what that first or next step is, and taking it because nothing is just one giant leap. It’s all steps. So let’s take the steps, start learning. I think, starting next week, next Wednesday, I’m going to start doing like a dive into this book I’ve been reading, I’m trying to figure out I want to do this, but I want to kind of break it into sections and talk about the concepts. It’s called the simple path to wealth. By jL Collins, I think jL Collins, and I might kind of highlight some areas of it, because it’s changing my life, just understanding the simplicity of this. And the sooner I start doing this, and we do this, the better. But it’s never too late. So let’s keep learning and growing and learning how to invest our money and growing wealth, because it is something anybody can do on some level. Maybe not immediately, maybe there’s some steps you need to take to be prepared, like paying off debts. Or maybe you it’s about a career change, so you can make more money. I’m not saying that people don’t have struggles, and that I’m not perfect, because I’m exceptionally privileged in the position I am in this world. And there’s so much further I can go. And the same goes for anyone who’s listening. We can overcome any challenge or any deficit or anything that any challenge we were born into, or that we have. It doesn’t mean it’s not going to be hard. But man, let’s figure it out. If you have any questions, if you want to add to this conversation, and what I’m saying if it makes any sense, or if I’m just talking nonsense, I want to hear it. So please email me at No Better Time. podcast@gmail.com, please share this podcast with a friend. I want people to hear it. I really for me. I’ve thought about like, what is my definition of success for this podcast. And it’s not making a million dollars. Because that’s, you know, it’s not that I would be sad about that. It’s with the podcast, I mean, making million dollars off the podcast or having a million listeners, that’d be amazing, because that means people are gaining something from this though really, for me. My indication of success will be when people start sending me questions and actually saying, that was awesome. What about this? I was wondering about this or that with investing or saving? Or how do I teach my children this or that? That’s what will be my definition of success of this podcast is people seeing me as someone they can turn to and ask these questions to and I can then turn answer them. I want to do that so badly. I hope you can get enough faith and trust in me to ask me these questions. I hope you can share with friends that more people hear this so that I can be in a position to do that. I have such big dreams for this podcast and in what it can be. So I appreciate you for listening. In you have a wonderful frigging day.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

32: Starting Something New – Cary Judd


Have you ever felt like life is falling apart all around you? Sometimes we can have a string of “bad luck”, and how we react really makes all the difference in the world. 

Today’s guest Cary Judd had a much worse 2020 than most (and that is saying a lot considering the global circumstances in 2020), and the way he processed his grief was to start something new. He took on a new challenge that starting opening doors he didn’t even realize existed before. He is now about to leave for Iceland where he will ride an electric skateboard over 800 miles! Yes, you read that right! Soon you will be able to watch a documentary chronicling this journey. You will have to watch to learn more, but trust me, it’s worth it!  

You can learn more about the documentary here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax6TYxHS1_U 

and on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/caryjudd/ 

Click this link to support the Podcast! https://anchor.fm/nobettertime/support 

Find where you can subscribe by visiting http://www.nobettertimepodcast.com 

Logo created by Rufus Man (https://www.facebook.com/rufusman101) creator of Yonder Comics (https://www.patreon.com/yondercomics)

Intro song:
Cooking & Food Background Music | ITALIA by Alex-Productions | https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCx0_M61F81Nfb-BRXE-SeVA
Music promoted by
Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License

Outro song:
Above The Clouds by | e s c p | https://escp-music.bandcamp.com
Music promoted by
Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License

Other music:
Ambivert by | e s c p | https://escp-music.bandcamp.comMusic promoted by https://www.free-stock-music.com
Attribution 4.0 International (CC BY 4.0)

Lucid Dreaming by | e s c p | https://escp-music.bandcamp.com
Music promoted by
Attribution 4.0 International (CC BY 4.0)
https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ — This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app — Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/nobettertime/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/nobettertime/support


Phil Salter 0:01
All right, welcome to no better time. This is Phil Salter, I’m here. So excited to be here with Kerry Judd, someone that we connected with on Facebook, at least two or three years ago at least. We have a mutual connection, Todd barley, who kind of made you aware of my real estate photography, and you kind of gave me some feedback? Do you remember that? Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, took the time, which really meant a lot to me. Okay. No, you’re It was nice. I hope you’re very nice about it. But you’re also worth direct, which I appreciated. Yeah, no, that’s great. Yeah, which can be hard. You know, if you’re, if you’re a little too precious about what you do, he might not be in a mental place sometimes to get that feedback. But you even give me examples of similar images, and you made changes. And I was like, I’ve utilized what you taught me every time since I’ve done a photo shoot. So it’s been hugely important to me. And it was meant so much to me that someone like you would take the time to do that. And you’re just like, we had the back and forth for a bit there on like, messenger. And I was like, Wow, I can’t believe you just give me all this information in time. So that’s something that really impressed me about you. And it’s put you obviously, in a very high place, in my mind is a lot of respect, and appreciation for you. So as I’ve seen you kind of posting things and doing things you know, on social media, I’ve always been it always caught my eye since then. And can you kind of the thing that stood out to me recently, actually, I was gonna ask you a question I’ve been trying to ask people carry is because the premise of my podcast is, it all started with me wanting to like, take on take risks and learn things that kind of intimidated me. And that can go a lot of places. And one of the places that intimidated me was learning about budgeting, not budgeting, but like investing in like growing wealth. And one of the things I wonder about with everyone, like what was your relationship to money when you were a child? And has it evolved over the years? Or how has it evolved?

Unknown Speaker 1:58

Cary Judd 1:59
my relationship to money when I was a kid, I went after it very early on, I had some good friends in the street I grew up on, we were probably around six or seven years old. And we had this idea. And the neighborhood where I grew up, was surrounded by just open space. And so they were developing it. And me and two of my buddies thought, you know what, let’s go start a lemonade stand, where they’re starting to develop where these construction workers are. And they were, they started coming down to us, this is on a main road. I know, it sounds like a lemonade stand sounds like you know, some kids out in the front yard. We went over a couple blocks, we set up the stand. We started with lemonade, and the construction workers would come down and be like, you know, 25 or 50 cents thing. And they’d be like, well, how much to fill up my thermos and be like, Okay, well, that’s $1.50. And so these, these three, seven year old kids were pulling in, you know, 30 $40 a day and then blowing it that afternoon going out to the arcade the afternoon or the donut shop, or just doing whatever we wanted. And then the second summer we did we got serious we we I mean, I don’t know how serious you can be over the lemonade stand at seven. But I remember we started thinking, well, if we expanded, there’s some things we could do. We could go buy a brownie mix and make a pan of brownies and see how that does. Right away. Like we would sell it to the brownies, like first thing in the morning. And so for me, it’s always been especially where we live in, you know, the US with capitalism, everything. If you have an idea, there’s just 100 ways to succeed, I think and that was from a very early age. And I think that was from my mom having her own business, running her own business and using hers very specific skill sets. And that’s kind of just bled over I think in most of my adult life. I just turned 45 a few months ago. And I think three, maybe five years of that I’ve had an actual job where I had a boss. So Wow, that’s amazing. Yeah, that’s really cool relationship with money is that? Yeah, yeah, I don’t, I don’t it’s it’s and money doesn’t equal stuff, or money equals freedom. It buys you time to do things that you care. Yeah. And that’s, that’s always been my attitude, I think, from very early age.

Phil Salter 4:09
Oh, for sure. That’s something I’m realizing too is, the more I can get in control of money, the more I can make choices with my time and do the things that I feel are most valuable. So it’s not that money makes or buys happiness, but it gives you the power to make choices for sure. That’s really cool. Because you think about like limited, Stan, what’s more cliche than that? And you could say, it kind of is another proof of all the fountains. Yeah, yeah, that shows you more proof of the abundance in the world around us that even eliminates down if you do it well. And you find the right place to do it. It’s going to be successful. Like you didn’t have to dig super deep to think of the most creative thing in the whole world is just a good idea. That worked. That’s something that like, that’s something that I’m starting to realize is it’s like there’s opportunities everywhere. You know, it’s just all around us. So yeah, that doesn’t surprise me though. About your that you started so young with that attitude, because it seems like you’re always doing things like you’ve been a musician. And I’ve listened to your music, I really like it. You’ve been a photographer, a cinematographer. And that kind of leads into something that you’re doing right now, which is really amazing. You’re, you’re in the midst of creating a documentary called eight to eight, or a 28. I guess, I don’t know how you would say it. Can you talk about that? And what led you? What led you to that? And kind of,

Cary Judd 5:29
yeah. One of one thing that I think probably, if you let it will bring out a lot of inspiration is burnout and failure. And I was kind of tired of juggling, you know, commercial clients. And then now I’m over here, you know, I was doing all kinds of different things. I was doing some sort of documentary research for Honda. And then I was doing commercials, I was working on commercial shoots for like, auto manufacturers and Blue Cross and then and making my own fun short films, in the meantime, just sort of build my portfolio as a cinematographer. And then in the last year, I kind of started burning out on it. And I mean, 2020, I can’t say that my 2020 was any worse than anyone else’s. But it just got worse and worse as time went on. And I just didn’t feel like doing anything. And so I think that sort of burnout led to me having this idea that I was going to go to Iceland with an electric skateboard, and ride all the way around the ring road, which is 828 miles. And a lot of other things get into that. I think you’re aware of some of it. In April, my mom passed away, which was, which was rough, you know, the pandemic was going on, along with a really vicious election. And then, let’s see, let me remember the sequence of events I’m I passed away in April, the morning of her funeral, about a week later, I got a call that a friend of mine had taken his own life. Wow, a few months later, I lost my job, one of the one of the jobs I’ve had as an adult, and then as a creative director for a company here in Boise. And then my cat got killed by a car in August. I mean, I shouldn’t be laughing, but sometimes that’s humor is my humor is my armor.

Phil Salter 7:18
We can’t judge how anybody processes these things, right?

Cary Judd 7:21
That’s, that’s the whole premise of this. And the bottom dropped out for me when my dad passed away a few days. And so it was like, you know, I had this money, a little bit of money in savings. Apparently, my parents left me a little bit of a nest egg, but I kind of just moved that over into investments to not really mess with. And I just thought, What do I, what can I get motivated to do, and I had an electric skateboard. And, and this is in winter in Boise, which isn’t a terrible winter, but it’s pretty chilly. And one day, that was I just decided I was gonna go out and ride it. And then that was like, the only thing that was getting me out of the house. And so I upgraded to a bigger one with more range, and then upgraded again, and then started talking to my friend Drew, who’s going to be directing the documentary. And I was like, What about if Iceland opens up? Like, would you want to go do that? And he was like, absolutely, let’s go do that. And so that’s sort of been my, it’s like you said, You can’t judge how anyone grieves. And this is, this is my, my way of working through it.

Phil Salter 8:17
So amazing. I mean, that it comes up. In fact, I just had a recorded interview with Todd, our mutual connection, Todd barley, just yesterday. And one of the things he said that really stands out to me is that sometimes, you know, what, make what makes us change, right? What, what’s the catalyst like is this did make a big move, or go for that thing. That is a risk, or just that we’ve been wanting to do, or make a thing to make us aware of an opportunity is sometimes a lot of pain and a lot of failure or different things that kind of acts as the catalyst. Sometimes we just, it doesn’t always need to be that. But that seems to be many times that like, really hard times, lead to really big changes. It’s like another example of my wife telling me she learned cuz she’s, uh, she danced. She did study ballet in college, this idea of, sometimes we feel like we’re moving backwards, and we’re losing ground. That’s really where if we’re in a slingshot, it’s like the pressure is building and we’re about to be launched forward to places we never even expected or thought we could be. That seems to be kind of what happened with you here. And I’m really sorry about all the tragedy that happened to you. It’s like, really, really rough time.

Cary Judd 9:27
Yeah, yeah. And it’s, I mean, there’s just a lot in a short period of time, and I think I already knew that I needed to Yeah, I needed to, I needed to lose that job. I think My only regret was not leaving on my own terms. You know, they started scaling Oregon, and I and I had been, you know, it. I was, I was a creative director. The very little the job was creative. So I was very unhappy. So it was, as I was walking out the door, I didn’t think oh, that was a blessing in disguise. It was just a blessing.

Phil Salter 9:56
You say you saw that pretty? For what it was right then hey, this is better for me cuz sometimes we don’t realize that Yeah. Until retrospect, right, but

Cary Judd 10:04
yeah, yeah. And it’s and that’s the thing too is sometimes I think one of my bigger weaknesses is that I’m slow to make big decisions. And so I’ll be very passive. And so it was kind of, yeah, it was just it was just a blessing. And I knew at the minute I knew that the minute I was getting in my car to go home.

Phil Salter 10:21
So then it sounds like you’re you’re still planning this whole experience of going to Iceland, right? You’re Yeah, it looks like you’ve been doing a lot of training because it’s a very physically difficult thing. Like you’d mentioned recently, on Facebook, people think, oh, what’s so hard you’re standing on that longboard is like no. imagined skiing down the hill all day or something, right? You’re saying?

Cary Judd 10:41
Yeah, imagine you pull off the left, and you come around the corner that that ski run is 100 miles long, you’re gonna have a different attitude about it. So it’s not heavy cardiovascular, but it’s like I’m doing a four hour leg workout pretty much. And yes, amazing. It’s it’s kind of fun, though. Because I’ve needed to get in shape. And like, my leg muscles have just turned into like, nuclear missiles. And they’re just like, hard. And it just feels like it feels good to have that kind of agility. I mean, I’m 45 it’s, it should be I should be on the decline right now. And I’m approaching as good a shape as I’ve ever been in. So

Phil Salter 11:14
let’s, let’s, I mean, that’s the thing that’s never like, by the way, my podcast is no better time any no better time than present to do something. And you could say, oh, man, I would have thought of this. 10 years ago when I was 35. You Nope, no, man. Let’s do it. Now. This is the time. Nothing to you know, nothing to stop you.

Cary Judd 11:31
I was I would, I would. And that’s the thing. That’s the great thing about ages. Like is you do gain wisdom with age. And I know I’m, I’m not 60 I’m not 75. I’m not like a wise old man. But like, I can cut through the crap a lot faster. I know. Okay, this is a good idea. This isn’t a good idea. This has a better chance of this doesn’t it’s, that’s that’s the nice thing that comes with age. And I’m just, yeah, yeah. Fortunately, I haven’t had any major injuries or anything slowing me down.

Phil Salter 11:57
That’s awesome. So what would you say so far, as you’ve been training and planning, and I’m sure it’s a lot of logistics around preparing for the trip itself and where you’re going to go and the whole process, but what things would you say you’ve been learning during this process of training physically, or planning or moving forward with the idea that maybe there’s things you’re surprised you’ve learned? Or maybe things? I don’t know?

Cary Judd 12:21
Yeah. Well, and I don’t know if this is where you want to go with this. But one of the things that’s really surprised me that I’ve learned is, these boards when you when you get into the big boards that you can get, you know, 4050 100 miles range out of which is what I’m reading now. These are not, these are not Toyota’s these are Ferrari. So every so many, so many miles, you have to go through and make sure everything’s tight, everything’s synced up the right way, or your gear drive and everything. So I’ve actually been learning a lot of basic engineering and electrical engineering stuff, which is not something I’ve never, you know, spent any time around. I never even worked back when I was a musician, I never even worked on my own guitars. And so learning that has been really, it’s been really like a surprise skill set that I’m starting to build. And I’ve got a long way to go. But once we’re in Iceland, I can’t, I can’t call a friend to come, you know, do some soldering. For me, I’ve had to learn how to do all of these things, and how to just maintain a piece of electrical engineering, which has been really kind of cool. It’s been a nice surprise. And I was intimidated by it. But after I started getting some grease on my fingers, I was like, This is cool. Like I can, I can like, I’m to the point where I could like modify a board or you know, just go into the speed controller inside, which is like a small computer and set my own settings for my acceleration speed and, you know, put a limiter on my top speeds, don’t anything stupid. And yeah, things like that. So that’s been, that’s been one thing that I’ve really, really enjoyed about the process and something new that I’ve learned,

Phil Salter 13:49
oh, that’s, that’s so relevant, actually. Because this idea of I’m sure, it’s been really empowering for you to to learn this new skill or this new things that maybe previous you would have thought, Oh, I’m probably no good at that kind of thing. It’s, it’s, we can surprise ourselves, we can really, if we put in the time, and we have enough motivation, we can learn all kinds of things we never thought we were capable of. And so it’s gonna feel really empowering and be really, and that’s going to translate into other areas of your life. I’m sure as you take on other challenges, like I have enough evidence from my previous experiences, that even though it seems like I have no idea how to install a toilet, for instance, I can find this out and do it or, you know, whatever, you know, that’s a weird example. But because I need to install a toilet Yeah.

Cary Judd 14:33
No, no, but especially in this day and age, you know, my, my, my old my older sisters just started restoring this house and she’s learning all these things, you know, and she’s, here’s, you know, telling you all this stuff about real estate and what happens in drywall on the order the framing, the electric and the drywall go in and things like that. And she’s I mean, she’s got a few years on me then and it’s I think that’s what keeps you happy to be alive is continue You’re going to progress and learn things. And I know it sounds like such a cliche platitude. But as long as you’re learning and growing like you’re still alive, it’s when you It’s when you stop and give out that just, you know, clock in and clock out for 40 hours until you’re 65 that you’ve probably, you know, you’re sleeping in a coffin at that point.

Phil Salter 15:18
Yeah, you don’t want to wait until you’re that age to think that’s when I start living my life. You know, you want to be living your life now. Yeah. And so that’s something I’m learning. It’s because like I said, this whole podcast thing has evolved. And these are skills and things that translate to like, how we make money, but it doesn’t have to be just about making money that could be a byproduct, or could be unrelated, even, but learning how to find our passions and grow.

Cary Judd 15:44
Yeah, if money is your number one motive that’s gonna get I just seems really disappointing. But you can do better than that. You can have a bigger motivator. I think that’s always been been my thought. So and again, it’s money is freedom. And that’s, that’s where money comes into play for me.

Phil Salter 16:02
Yeah, it seems like if but if you’re following passions, it’s not. It’s not far behind that there’s going to be some kind of payoff. And but yeah, it’s not always going to be the exactly in a bunch of money. But yeah, that’s, that’s not unrelated either. So yeah, totally. I think that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I’m really excited for this. And I can’t wait, what’s the timeline? Go ahead, you’re gonna say something else,

Cary Judd 16:24
maybe leave for Iceland on July 28. And that gives me 11 days to skate 828 miles, and then we will be back. Wow, August 13 13th, I think and then, from there, we’ll go, we’re gonna jump right into editing. So we want to have a finished cut by the end of the year. And then Drew’s who’s directing it, Drew Garcia, he’s, he’s represented through APA, one of the holly, like he said, I was I was a Hollywood agent. So from there, we’re going to go to shopping to Netflix, and Hulu and HBO and all the all the streaming services. And we hope to be ready to have a finished product, product in hand ready to shop by end of the year.

Phil Salter 17:03
That’s fantastic. Because I was gonna say, I mean, that’s just part of it, filming it, doing it, but then all the editing and like getting those deals in place. So it’s gonna be some time, but I’m really excited for when I can watch this on whatever platform it’s on. It’s gonna be really amazing. And of course, I’m gonna brag to everyone that I knew this guy and I interviewed him before he even went to Iceland. Iceland’s got to someplace I really want to go. It’s such such a beautiful place. But well, if people wanted to

Cary Judd 17:32
everyone who has a camera wants to go,

Phil Salter 17:34
Yeah, that’s true. If people want to learn more about this project, or other things that you’ve you’re a part of, or in the past, like your music or other things, where can they find you?

Cary Judd 17:44
They can Google my name is probably easiest way. Yeah. For the 828 documentary, we have an Instagram page. That’s just 8828 documentary. And then my personal Instagram page, which is just Kerry Judd, one of those, you’re gonna see a lot of what’s going on behind the scenes.

Phil Salter 17:59
Car. Why and ca r y? j udd? Yeah, correct. Excellent. Yeah. So check them out, check out because he does have a trailer right now, for the documentary. And I’m sure you’re posting. I’m seeing a lot of these clips that you post on Facebook, because we’re friends there. But obviously, for people who aren’t your friend on Facebook, I’m sure it’s on Instagram and all those things as well. In fact, I need to follow your channel. Yeah, I’m gonna follow that right away. And yeah, but on YouTube, I believe is where you posted the the trailer for this kind of teaser where the word for it a teaser of your

Cary Judd 18:35
Yeah, that was just a daily from training and that’s on ice cream entertainment YouTube channel. That’s Drew’s YouTube drew and his brother, Nate’s YouTube channel.

Phil Salter 18:44
Excellent. Yeah. So look for that coming out. But check that out in the meantime, and you can get some, some pieces of that as it’s coming together through those channels. Like we said, I want to thank you again, just for the time you’ve given me something I’ve been really excited. And just really grateful that you put aside this time to talk with me about this, just these ideas of seizing the day taking risks like this is all related. Like I said, Yeah, the premises, learning finances, but Dude, it’s all related if we want to be related. Yep. All right. Well, thanks so much. You have a great day. You bet.

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31: QuickDive – Update on My Investing Strategy


I have been reading a really excellent book call “The Simple Path the Wealth” by J L Collins (https://amzn.to/2U1y8S0). And it really has gotten my wheels turning on how I could better approach my investing journey. 

I have been using Betterment as a way to invest in various funds, but I’ve realized that the Vanguard VTSAXVanguard Total Stock Market Index Fund (https://bit.ly/3qjhWaJ), is a really great fund that encompassed about 3,700 US businesses that is self-cleansing by removing the failed companies in the stock market from the fund over time. It has a great history of good performance that is low maintenance from an investor’s perspective and has low fees (0.04% which is quite low as I understand it). I talk about why I have decided to move my money from Betterment into Vanguard, and why I am done playing the individual stock game via Robinhood (mostly done at least lol). Check it out and let me know what you think! I would love to hear feedback on what you do or do not agree with from my conclusions and on my new strategy moving forward. 

I also get into my plans to start moving a bit into staking with crypto. Still very fresh and new to this whole idea too, so that will be interesting and fun to explore and discover.

I of course am not a financial advisor and am simply on a path of learning and wealth building. Let’s do it together!

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Phil Salter 0:00
All right, welcome to no better time. I’m Phil Salter, and this is one of my quick dive episodes. But this is another one of my update episodes as well. It’s been a while I’m starting to feel like man, have I been learning anything really new that I can share about an all any updates on my plan for investing and what I’ve been doing to build wealth. And some really cool things have happened. When I was at my reunion, it was really exciting. My brother in law was talking to me about and he’d actually been listening to some episodes, particularly cryptocurrency episode and some other ones. And it actually resonated with him. And he said, like, he’s thinking differently. And he’s thinking, How can I start being more active in my wealth building process and preparing to build more passive income he got hit, I can see the excitement in his eyes. And he said he was looking at the world differently. And to me, that’s, that was a biggest honor to know that my brother in law, Ernesto was inspired by what I’m doing here. For me that was so validating and exciting to think that’s why I’m doing this, like, that’s exactly what I want to happen. It’s helping me so much, but to know that it’s also helping others just so great. I’ve been reading this book, The simple path to wealth by jL Collins, and it’s so good. I’m about halfway through. Over the last few days, I’ve been reading it pretty aggressively at night, because I’m trying to finish it before the end of the month. As of now, it’s the 23rd of June. So I have like a week to finish this thing, which I’ll do easily because this thing’s a really good read. But man, it’s opened my eyes to think differently. So this, jL Collins has a very, very straightforward process for building wealth. You just invest in the stock market, in, in these in a mutual fund, but specifically, this Vanguard fund, he’s a big fan of Vanguard, and explain some reasons why he’s not paid by them. They don’t. But he just loves them. And it’s been good to him over the years. And the way Vanguard was built, it’s, it’s a at cost it they operate at cost. So meaning they’re not trying to get a profit with their fees into the people who own who invest through Vanguard basically owned Vanguard, right. So it’s kind of like, I may be wrong in this. But you know, if you think like a credit union, it’s owned by the people, by the customers, right? So basically, Vanguard has been set up to be an at cost business so that whatever fees you pay are going to be lower than other places because they just want to cover their operating costs and so that they don’t have to necessarily charge extra then give the money back to you. So then what there’s tax implications with that as well, I think. But anyways, Vanguard is really awesome because of this specific fund called the VTS a x, which stands for the vanguard total stock market, index fund or something like this, but it’s ve t as in Tom, SA x. And he’s all about this font. He’s saying I would when you’re in when you’re in a wealth building mode 100% if you feel like you want to be this aggressive, he’s like, I put 100% into there. And eventually, as you start to, like, get closer to retirement, you might start doing a mix of bonds and things. But I feel like I’m in a wealth building process. And so I looked at it and I was like, well, I’ve been using betterment, and which was a good thing for me, because it got me started. It got me going. But I always had this feeling like maybe betterments not the Well, first of all, let me say I’m not a financial advisor. And so whatever I say is just things I’m kind of figuring out for myself, and I’m learning as I go. So take that for what it is. But I realized at some point, I could see myself maybe moving from betterment. Anyways, I looked in the bedroom, and I said, Well, I want to be in this specific Vanguard fund. It has a $3,000 minimum investment, I think to get into it, but I have enough in betterment that if I were to transfer it over, I could actually, you know, meet that guy over that. That minimum. that’s beside the point other than just say, hey, that that’s something to consider with this particular fund. In Vanguard, they have a bunch of funds, actually. But um, I was looking at betterment, like, well, what am I investing in, in betterment? And it turns out betterman is using a bunch of different Vanguard funds a bunch of different ones, like some international ones, and, you know, US stocks, and it’s all these different ones. I’m like, Well, I like Vanguard,

but I want to have more control one to a specific fund. And then I realized to look into it, well betterment using it and I’m double paying fees. So basically this Vanguard vt sa x fund, it’s only like a point oh 5% like fee which is like really low compared to other ones are like point two, five or like or higher. It’s very low maintenance. You just set it and forget it. If you’re This is for someone who’s going to put money in the stock market bet on the market in the long run and be able to weather the storms because there will be dips in the stock market goes up and down. But over time, you look at these charts, the stock market as a whole always rises. There’s dips to that as it rises higher than before, dips for COVID, right? It’s gonna, it’s gonna rise higher than before. And so that’s Hey, Alexa, stop. Alright, so anyways, that’s what I’m thinking for long term growth bet on the stock market and don’t get scared when things dip because they do, there will always be crashes and they’re always rebound higher. If you know past performance is not proof or guaranteed future success, but I think we have enough here to say, hey, if the stock market crashes, then there’s really no good investments, right? So it’s like, then we’re then if there’s an apocalypse, then like, it doesn’t matter what we have invested in, it’s we there’s bigger problems, right? So I realized, why am I gonna be picked not using the funds I want plus, I’m double paying fees. And this stuff adds up quickly, or not quickly. But over time, the less any fraction of a percent, you can remove in your fees to invest. It pays off in 1000s of dollars over the years. And so I’ve decided I’m going to transfer everything over to Vanguard, it’s a little bit of a process, you have to like fill out paperwork and actually mail them something physically, to take money from my betterment holdings account into Vanguard. But I’m going to do it. And then another thing I realized is, why am I if I’m betting on the stock market, as in the long run as a whole, not individual companies, what’s really cool about this VTS, ax fun is it self cleansing. So as companies aren’t performing up to the standard, it’s like 3700 companies are in this fund. So very broad. But if companies fail, they get knocked out, you’re no longer invest in those anymore. And that rolls over into other things. And so it’s self cleansing. So it’s like companies that are within this certain criteria, or in this fund. It’s also some people say, what about international investing? It’s very international. Like, there’s these companies, even though they’re US companies, they are international, like Microsoft, Apple, these companies are really actually international companies. So you’re kind of getting that it kind of covers that international thing. And so it’s a really cool fund. And it’s a good bet. And again, I’m not a financial adviser, but this is what I’m going to try. And so then I started thinking, well, then if I’m doing that, because I’ve been I don’t know, if you’ve if you’ve been listening, I’ve been doing I’ve been putting $30 a week into Robin Hood, which is a way to buy individual stocks, it’s a brokerage

account, I guess you could say that, that you invest in stocks. And I’ve been I put, like, I’ve done these things. I’ve injected like $1,000 for this thing here, or this or that. But over time, it’s kind of grown to a certain amount of money. But then I was looking at the numbers. And it’s like, besides one stock, that’s like totally speculative. That’s actually doing really well right now, but who knows where it’s gonna go? I’m actually like, breaking even or losing a little bit of money as a whole. And across all these different stocks I’m buying. I’m like, okay, it’s all just a crapshoot. Why am I putting all this energy into something that when I look at even my betterment account, which isn’t even that as good as it could be, if I get this other fund, I, in my opinion, it’s doing better. And I’m not when I when I put in there, I just walk away, and I don’t have to think about it, I’m not checking it all the time, you know. And so I realized, I’m going to sell all these stocks, and maybe eat a couple, you know, a little bit of money out of it, but and I’m going to take this money and do something else with it either put it in Vanguard, but I’m also considering I had a cryptocurrency episode with crypto for Robin, and defy fry. And they were talking about aetherium. And staking. And I’m looking into that, because I care about after selling the stocks, I have, let’s say, a certain amount of money that I could see. And they say you need to have at least $1,000 to make it worth doing because there are fees associated with getting into aetherium. And into like, going into protocols to stake this money, which I’m still trying to learn how this works. But you do something called Coinbase as a place you would go to actually buy the Ethereum and then you could take that your Coinbase wallet and put it into something like shared stake and steak it and they have these kind of a these annual returns which you know, fluctuate but are definitely better than putting it in some like savings account. So anyways, that’s what I’m considering. I’ll keep you posted on that as I kind of dig into that. But I have a little over $1,000 that I could just do that after selling some of these stocks. And I want to keep it in some type of investment. I don’t want to just put it back in my bank account. I want to grow my investments and keep putting money in and versus like cutting out this early. It’s been a couple months doing the stock market thing. And it’s like the more I’m learning more realizing this is not where my energy needs to go. And so it’s been kind of fun to like make these connections and realizations and kind of adapting my plan. I’m hoping it’ll work out So that’s kind of where I’m at now. I’d love to get your feedback, there’s some things I’d love to I’m looking for people who have experience with setting up accounts for their children, kind of like college funds, where does the best place to put them that money so that you can, with the best tax implications for when you transfer this funds over to your kids. I want to start slow and maybe put $20 a month into accounts for each of my kids and grow from there. But I don’t know what kind of accounts to do, because I was just doing these random betterment like accounts just going the stock market, but I kind of like this can’t be the best way to do this. So I’m going to reach out and see if I can find someone who has experienced with this kind of thing. And if you or someone you know knows about that, please reach out to me at No Better Time podcast@gmail.com so that I can interview and talk about this because I think this is something other people might be interested in learning about. So thanks for listening. It’s just really exciting to learn these things I’m really trying to like look for to get more actual experts on these different topics. I want to learn what people want to know about around money, finances, investing, removing increasing credit, all this stuff, you know, I want to get more information and more expertise in the mix so that we can all learn together. All right, well, have a great day.

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